Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 46

Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#1 » Nov 05 2017 05:50

Ok I know this isn’t the best idea and won’t perform great over taking good shooting builds and it’s not to be used in tournaments. But for a fun casual game has anyone built a close combat themed list that sort of worked?

Clearly throwing a bunch of Kroot at Blood Angle Assault marries is not the best idea in the world. But I have been having success with selective close combat. For example wiping out a Ork Dreadnought Army mostly from flamers and selective CC.

I am finding we can beat targets which hit hard in CC but have a low amount of attacks like a CC Deff Dread. All we do is absorb the low hits onto shield drones and then hit back in CC, jump out, fire flamers and overwatch flamers when they charge us again. So I was thinking about building a stronger hybrid list of shooting/CC army around this. Something like Farsight with flamer bodyguide suits with ATS, Krootox Riders with Shaper to reoll 1s in CC can catch opponent off-guard, 3 riders is 6 A’s S6. Damage 2.

I am aware having a 100% CC Tau list is a bad idea. This was more about having a few ok CC options that opponents will not be expecting from Tau. Anyone else having fun bringing Tau CC elements into play and catching opponents off guard?

DancinHobo
Shas
Posts: 62

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#2 » Nov 05 2017 06:17

I recently got Farsight and was quite impressed by his fighting. I was thinking of an idea back in 7th to take Farsight, a guard with Fusion blades. Then a commander with the Ongar gauntlet. Have a little team of 3 that could fight well.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#3 » Nov 05 2017 06:33

Using flamer and binding some very specific units in melee, especially with Shield Drones around, is what I do all the time. It's not really something ground breaking, just useful to keep in mind. It's too situational to build a list or tactic around though.

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Harkus959
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Posts: 130

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#4 » Nov 05 2017 06:53

I haven't built anything with a focus on melee combat, but I have been playing a very close-ranged firepower list that's been fun to play, and has been fairly effective too, focusing on breachers, flamers, and fusion blasters.

It has a squad if kroot, but after they got wiped out in melee against four devastators, I stopped hoping for combat efficiency from them.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Posts: 786

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#5 » Nov 05 2017 09:23

Close Combat is pretty central to my current play style. I still do nearly all the damage in the Shooting Phase but I the use assault and combat to control the tempo of the game and to limit my opponent's options.

For example in my last game I focussed a lot of pulse fire onto some screening AM Infantry and then pulled off a turn 1 charge on them with my Coldstar who promptly piled in onto a Leman Russ Punisher. We agreed afterwards that shutting down the firepower from that tank is ultimately what won me the game - although I did zero damage to it in combat and had not even declared it in the charge phase because I did not fancy that much overwatch!

The Coldstar and the Vespid units are my main assault threats, they have the mobility to get in clutch assaults on things my opponent does not want locked in place. The Kroot hounds do a nice job of nuisance assault and can pick off isolated supporting characters in the mid-game when even a small hole in the screening units can be exploited to pull off a charge. Kroot Carnivores tend to only fare well against badly weakened units so I tend to use assault on them more as a way to get ObSec bodies across the table and onto objectives.

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Panzer
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Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#6 » Nov 05 2017 10:10

nic wrote:The Coldstar and the Vespid units are my main assault threats, they have the mobility to get in clutch assaults on things my opponent does not want locked in place.

Vespid really are awesome. Last game my unit of 5 (still need to build more) obliterated a small unit of Purestrain Genestealer in cover, charged the Guardsmen infront of them, next turn jumped over them, shot a Comissar to death and then slowly died by soaking up a lot of damage since they were sitting in cover and most units were out of range (it was on a flank).

As we keep saying, T'au work best within 18" these days and charging is definitely a viable option. Not to do damage, but to prevent the enemy from doing damage.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#7 » Nov 05 2017 01:06

Just wrote a crazy list that's very do or die close range list.

3 x QFC Commander
1x 4 CIB Commander

4 x 3 stealth suits with
Homing beacon
Fusion Shas'vre w Multi-tracker
2 ATS suits

4 x 3 crisis suits with
Shas'vre
2 flamers and ATS each

2000pts exactly 6 drops

It's a bit nuts but you would have to deploy a QFC and CIB Commander w 4 stealth teams
Use stealth suits to get Flamer units 5-6" from target unit drop and torch 4 different units then assault to deny counter attack, unless dedicated Cc units shouldn't suffer many casualties

Pincer any armour between the commanders, keeping drops to 15+" away should ensure that stealth or crisis team is closest target.

Do you think it Could work?

Edit: just for clarification 2 vanguard detachments

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#8 » Nov 05 2017 01:30

Nymphomanius wrote:Just wrote a crazy list that's very do or die close range list.

3 x QFC Commander
1x 4 CIB Commander

4 x 3 stealth suits with
Homing beacon
Fusion Shas'vre w Multi-tracker
2 ATS suits

4 x 3 crisis suits with
Shas'vre
2 flamers and ATS each

2000pts exactly 6 drops

It's a bit nuts but you would have to deploy a QFC and CIB Commander w 4 stealth teams
Use stealth suits to get Flamer units 5-6" from target unit drop and torch 4 different units then assault to deny counter attack, unless dedicated Cc units shouldn't suffer many casualties

Pincer any armour between the commanders, keeping drops to 15+" away should ensure that stealth or crisis team is closest target.

Do you think it Could work?

Edit: just for clarification 2 vanguard detachments

Needs more Drones for sure. Crisis without Drones are basically worthless since they die way too fast. Shield Drones for the Flamer Crisis and Gun Drones for the Fusion Blaster Crisis I'd say. And Shield Drones for the Commander of course as well.

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Harkus959
Shas'Saal
Posts: 130

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#9 » Nov 05 2017 01:41

Nymphomanius wrote:Just wrote a crazy list that's very do or die close range list.

3 x QFC Commander
1x 4 CIB Commander

4 x 3 stealth suits with
Homing beacon
Fusion Shas'vre w Multi-tracker
2 ATS suits

4 x 3 crisis suits with
Shas'vre
2 flamers and ATS each

2000pts exactly 6 drops

It's a bit nuts but you would have to deploy a QFC and CIB Commander w 4 stealth teams
Use stealth suits to get Flamer units 5-6" from target unit drop and torch 4 different units then assault to deny counter attack, unless dedicated Cc units shouldn't suffer many casualties

Pincer any armour between the commanders, keeping drops to 15+" away should ensure that stealth or crisis team is closest target.

Do you think it Could work?

Edit: just for clarification 2 vanguard detachments


Just be careful with how you're using homing beacons. You can only precision drop one unit per turn regardless of how many beacons you have on the field.

If this has been FAQ'd please let me know.

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CDR_Farsight
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Posts: 99

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#10 » Nov 07 2017 11:25

One point of clarification. I was playing a game yesterday and used a Stealth Suit with an ATS in close combat. I was informed that the ATS does NOT count for close combat attacks because it specifically states that it improves the weapon by -1 AP and not attacks. Since without a codex, we do not have any CC weapons that have a profile, the ATS cannot improve CC attacks.

I'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere, but I know I've seen people using ATS in CC. This is directly from the horse's mouth btw...not conjecture, speculation, or rules lawyering.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Harkus959
Shas'Saal
Posts: 130

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#11 » Nov 07 2017 11:36

CDR_Farsight wrote:One point of clarification. I was playing a game yesterday and used a Stealth Suit with an ATS in close combat. I was informed that the ATS does NOT count for close combat attacks because it specifically states that it improves the weapon by -1 AP and not attacks. Since without a codex, we do not have any CC weapons that have a profile, the ATS cannot improve CC attacks.

I'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere, but I know I've seen people using ATS in CC. This is directly from the horse's mouth btw...not conjecture, speculation, or rules lawyering.


"A model equipped with an advanced targeting system increases the AP characteristic of all of its weapons by 1 (e.g. an AP of 0 becomes -1, an AP of -1 becomes -2)."

That's the rule as stated in the index for the ATS, so while your opponent is correct and it does only apply to a weapon's AP, they are forgetting this section from the Warhammer 40, 000 8th Ed. Rulebook (page 183):

"4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a
melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with
are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list
any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a
close combat weapon, which has the following profile:"

It then lists the profile, which ATT rules prevent me from posting, but it does unequivocally state that you DO have a weapon, even if it isn't listed in your wargear, and as such, ATS technically applies to your CC attacks too.

That said, I'm not sure if that's how it was intended as ATS does feel like it should only apply to ATS, so depending on how fluffy you want to play it, and how strict you want to be about rules, you can take it or leave it. If you do choose to apply the ATS in melee however, the rules currently support that.

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 96

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#12 » Nov 07 2017 11:43

i think of ATS as showing where the weak points are (fuel line, thin armor, ammo storage and such), so from a fluff standpoint it would work in close combat.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 99

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#13 » Nov 07 2017 11:43

I also made that argument, but this is from the rules folks...not just some random opponent.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Harkus959
Shas'Saal
Posts: 130

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#14 » Nov 07 2017 11:50

CDR_Farsight wrote:I also made that argument, but this is from the rules folks...not just some random opponent.


Rules Folks? At a tournament or from GW themselves? As far as I know, GW tends to avoid answering individual FAQs and prefers to save them up to release one "batch" of answers. If you know of a way to get more immediate responses please share your channels :D

(Not sarcasm just to clarify, I genuinely would like to know if there is a way to get quick answers from GW)

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Harkus959
Shas'Saal
Posts: 130

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#15 » Nov 07 2017 11:55

MNGamer wrote:i think of ATS as showing where the weak points are (fuel line, thin armor, ammo storage and such), so from a fluff standpoint it would work in close combat.


It could definitely work that way, although fluff wise I'm not sure if our soldiers are skilled enough in CC to make use of that extra targetting data effectively (WS5+ after all).

I expect if it's not intended that way it'll get a quick patch in Chapter Approved or our next codex to read "A model equipped with an advanced targeting system increases the AP characteristic of all of its ranged weapons by 1."

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 376

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#16 » Nov 07 2017 12:02

CC weapon was FAQ'ed from "-" to "0" I believe and we can infact use ATS benefits in CC at the current moment. I suspect our codex will change it to shooting attacks only.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Anyone tried a Tau close Combat theme list in this edition?

Post#17 » Nov 07 2017 12:25

Yeah originally ATS didn't work on the CCW which every model has by default. Since it used to have AP- as stat which is not modifiable (what is " - " minus 1? " - " is not a number you can calculate with). Your friends are right with that.
However it got FAQ'd into AP0 quite some time ago and that one can get modified. AP0 minus 1 is AP-1. ;)

That's also the difference between Sv- and Sv 7+ (Poxwalker have that one). One says it's impossible for the unit to have an armor save, the other says it can get modified into one you can actually roll on a d6 (in Cover for example).

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