Stormsurge

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
DancinHobo
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#19 » Nov 13 2017 09:09

I like the idea of counter fire. I feel like it would be worth it on the Surge with all the shots he is pumping out! Don’t know though. Gonna try it soon.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#20 » Nov 13 2017 11:03

Haechi wrote:Alright, fair enough, I'll try 2 EWO and 2 Velocity then =]


And remember if a unit drops within 12" of both EWO SS both can shoot at it #nomoreunit :D

Nymphomanius
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#21 » Nov 13 2017 11:53

Haechi wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Haechi wrote:Alright, fair enough, I'll try 2 EWO and 2 Velocity then =]


And remember if a unit drops within 12" of both EWO SS both can shoot at it #nomoreunit :D


Nobody is going to stupid enough to drop inside 12" of an EWO Surge once you told him you have it. Right? Right??


It's their job to ask, your job to wait until they're deployed and blast them into Kingdom come :biggrin:

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Beerson
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#22 » Nov 13 2017 12:00

Nymphomanius wrote:It's their job to ask, your job to wait until they're deployed and blast them into Kingdom come :biggrin:

yeah, you can just "forget" to mention that unless they ask you, nothing wrong with that :evil:

Bolter&Rail
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#23 » Nov 13 2017 04:18

Ya I question if a stormsurge will ever win its points back in a competitive game, but I do find it to be an excellent jack-of-all-trades and clean-up operations unit. While I don't take EWO on it, I find that whatever most armies deepstrike in the stormsurge can just unleash havoc on the following turn.

If you anchor and/or master of war the guy he can dish some damage, but still hard to chew threw 440+pts of infantry or vehicles with just the one-use missiles and a smattering of successful damages with the big gun.

I agree that some good strategems could really help it out. My competitive list currently runs one, but without drones tanking wounds he is surprisingly fragile for how intimidating it looks. Armies will either ignore it or kill it quickly i find.

Jacket
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#24 » Nov 13 2017 06:32

Bolter&Rail wrote:Ya I question if a stormsurge will ever win its points back in a competitive game, but I do find it to be an excellent jack-of-all-trades and clean-up operations unit. While I don't take EWO on it, I find that whatever most armies deepstrike in the stormsurge can just unleash havoc on the following turn.

If you anchor and/or master of war the guy he can dish some damage, but still hard to chew threw 440+pts of infantry or vehicles with just the one-use missiles and a smattering of successful damages with the big gun.

I agree that some good strategems could really help it out. My competitive list currently runs one, but without drones tanking wounds he is surprisingly fragile for how intimidating it looks. Armies will either ignore it or kill it quickly i find.

Once again unless it's a commander drone or some troops. It's over costed and usually useless in our dex. Still mad I have to wait until march to see the Tau dex.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#25 » Nov 13 2017 10:32

I can't wait until next month. I'm piloting TWO stormsurges in a 1500 point small event. :) I just want to juggernaut them into the middle of the board.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#26 » Nov 13 2017 11:46

Off topic as usual: the new tyranid dex has all the pics of nids fighting us tau i know we all anticipate march including myself but...

I noticed our markerlights, jsj and our double fire weapon units. Surge riptide. And throw in the OSC i guess.
Anyways maybe all those things will be stratagems


2 surges juggernauting to middle of board
I was just going to say i miss the 12" movement. though i feel 6 is fair to fluff more than Purpose.
Thing needs to close on those superheavies n such.
Had more utility with speed.


own 4 surges?
I have two
Ones going to have an extrem kitbash one day
though i can see myself having three. For one on each side of the custom. But 4!? Lol
Ia love it or hate it Modle.
It was one of the things that made me restart 40k. I seen the surge and was sold; again.

The Twin burst cannons/flamer/afl should have a twin markerlight type option ;).

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#27 » Nov 14 2017 08:54

Twin markerlight would be probably an auto take even if they costed 18 for the set. It would give it a decent chance to make the destroyer missles really really good

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Emberkahn
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#28 » Nov 15 2017 08:28

Re EWO:

I would always consider it poor sportsmanship for your opponent not to be aware you had the EWO and would always remind them. Winning to people making a genuine mistake leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Assuming they know, they probably won't drop within 12; instead they will at 12.

The reason I don't rate it very highly is that for 32 points you can get 2 units of dogs that do the exact same thing, but more effectively; deploy them in front of your units so that enemy can't get within 12. The exception to this is directly in front of you, which was partly why I asked at the start whether people charge them up the board; If so I feel EWO is valuable; if you are just camping in a corner, your screening units should cover it.

So question:

Do people charge their stormsurge up the board, or anchor it in a corner/backline?

If the former, EWO will probably be very useful. If the latter, seems a waste.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#29 » Nov 15 2017 08:52

Emberkahn wrote:Re EWO:

I would always consider it poor sportsmanship for your opponent not to be aware you had the EWO and would always remind them. Winning to people making a genuine mistake leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Honestly, it depends. On the opponent and on what kind of game it is.
If it's an opponent who just can't stay focussed and keeps forgetting everything I wouldn't bother reminding him every time. Eventually people have to learn to pay attention to what they are doing.
Same goes for tournaments. If I told them my loadouts once and even gave them a copy of the army list I expect them to know what my units can do. If he forgets it it's his mistake and deserves getting punished by it. It's a competetive environment after all and there's more to a game than list building and knowing your own rules.

In a casual game against an opponent who is usually focussed and doesn't need to get reminded of everything all the time, I would remind him of the EWO if it seems like he forgot about it though.

Emberkahn wrote:Assuming they know, they probably won't drop within 12; instead they will at 12.

They would at 12.1" then. 12" is still within 12. That's an important difference since 12" is the range for melta, rapid fire plasma, rapid fire storm bolter, max range where you are allowed to announce charges and so on. ;)

Emberkahn wrote:The reason I don't rate it very highly is that for 32 points you can get 2 units of dogs that do the exact same thing, but more effectively; deploy them in front of your units so that enemy can't get within 12. The exception to this is directly in front of you, which was partly why I asked at the start whether people charge them up the board; If so I feel EWO is valuable; if you are just camping in a corner, your screening units should cover it.

Hounds don't do the same thing though. Hounds have to be deployed on the board and die easily against any kind of shooting. They may prevent reserves arriving turn 1, but if the opponent has any note worthy reserves he'd like to have within 12" of the Stormsurge he'll simply wipe the hounds first and then drop in turn 2.

Emberkahn wrote:So question:

Do people charge their stormsurge up the board, or anchor it in a corner/backline?

If the former, EWO will probably be very useful. If the latter, seems a waste.

Depends on the situation honestly. If the enemy has reserves and you a mobile army, then try to keep him close to the rest of your army or else he'll get picked off alone without EWO. Otherwise I don't see why you should try to get closer than 20" for the good PBC profile. Everything except for the Burst Cannons has plenty range and the Burst Cannons have only 2" less range than the good PBC profile but also are only 8 shots so you don't really need to be this close anyway.

EWO is always worth it unless you play a very static gunline and bubble wrap your Stormsurge to no end. Nothing you said so far made me think otherwise.

Pottsey
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#30 » Nov 15 2017 04:46

Panzer wrote:EWO is always worth it unless you play a very static gunline and bubble wrap your Stormsurge to no end. Nothing you said so far made me think otherwise.

No it’s not always worth it. In my experience it’s pretty poor as it doesn’t seem to have any impact on my opponents or what position they choose to deep strike in. Despite taking EWO just about every game (not always on the stormsturge) I have just about given up on it having any useful impact.

I am not saying its useless but a lot of it comes down to the army and who controls that enemy army. It is very good against the right opponents.

EDIT: What I find more of a deterrent against deep striking is overlapping support fire. So I take counter defence or more often multitracker as it benefits all shooting (not at the same time). Most of my opponents have no second thought factoring in EWO on deep striking but they have learnt to factor in support over watch that and grav drones. Last game partly due to that drone I watched 5 nid chargers failing to get into CC in one round. Which was really nice with the damage I dealt from overlapping overwatch.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#31 » Nov 15 2017 11:52

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:EWO is always worth it unless you play a very static gunline and bubble wrap your Stormsurge to no end. Nothing you said so far made me think otherwise.

No it’s not always worth it. In my experience it’s pretty poor as it doesn’t seem to have any impact on my opponents or what position they choose to deep strike in. Despite taking EWO just about every game (not always on the stormsturge) I have just about given up on it having any useful impact.

I am not saying its useless but a lot of it comes down to the army and who controls that enemy army. It is very good against the right opponents.

Well I am talking about EWO on the Stormsurge obviously. It's not nearly as good on other units since they lack the punch.
And either you roll very poorly or else I don't see how it can't have any impact on your opponents deployment?
With just the Burst Cannon, Cluster rocket system and SMS you already kill 5 Marines with average rolls and no stabilizing anchor but with ATS obviously. Or about two Terminators.
That means on average every MSU Marine unit is dead if they deep strike within 12" of the Stormsurge and Slaanesh Terminators lose a big chunk of their firepower before even doing anything. So either they are willing to take those casualties or they have to deploy outside of his 12" bubble and aren't in range for melta or plasma rapid fire. It's really not rocket science.

Considering that most armies have any form of reserves to get something mean quick to the enemy lines, yes I do claim that EWO is basically always worth it since you don't really give up anything for it except maybe for Stims or Velocity Tracker (those are even more situational though).

Pottsey wrote:EDIT: What I find more of a deterrent against deep striking is overlapping support fire. So I take counter defence or more often multitracker as it benefits all shooting (not at the same time). Most of my opponents have no second thought factoring in EWO on deep striking but they have learnt to factor in support over watch that and grav drones. Last game partly due to that drone I watched 5 nid chargers failing to get into CC in one round. Which was really nice with the damage I dealt from overlapping overwatch.

I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

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Arka0415
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#32 » Nov 16 2017 12:07

Here's my observation. Most good deep strike units are shooting units. However, many players are tempted by the possibility of getting that cool deep strike-assisted charge, something which was largely not possible in previous editions. Shooting may be better, but charges have an appeal that makes them common.

However, I agree- EWO offers competent defense against both shooting and assault units. It may not prevent enemies from landing close to you, but it does let things like the Stormsurge absolutely unload on them!

It seems to me that many powerful deep strike shooting units have 12" range, such as units with Plasma Pistols, Storm Bolters. I can't remember the details of that Slaanesh combo but probably that too. EWO disuades both rapid-fire weapons and charges as well.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#33 » Nov 16 2017 12:14

Arka0415 wrote: I can't remember the details of that Slaanesh combo but probably that too.

Terminators fully equipped with Combi-Plasma and the 2CP Stratagem that lets them shoot an additional time at the end of the shooting phase. Makes 20 Plasma shots from 5 guys when in Rapid fire range with potentially 10 of them getting +1 on to-wound rolls with another 1CP Stratagem. Of course together with re-rolling 1s from a nearby Lord or Daemon Prince or a Sorcerer casting Prescience for a +1 on to-hit rolls.

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Jhul'vol
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#34 » Nov 16 2017 02:06

Against the full Slaanesh Termi combo an EWO won't work though.
They will just drop in on 12.1", then use a sorcerer with Warp Time to get close. Considering a Sorcerer can cast twice, they can have both Prescience and Warp Time.
(I've been on the receiving end of that combo last weekend on a tournament).

While the EWO will work as a deterrent for normal deepstrikers, I'm not sure if it's worth it. But will depend on your playstyle and meta I guess.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#35 » Nov 16 2017 02:24

Jhul'vol wrote:Against the full Slaanesh Termi combo an EWO won't work though.
They will just drop in on 12.1", then use a sorcerer with Warp Time to get close. Considering a Sorcerer can cast twice, they can have both Prescience and Warp Time.
(I've been on the receiving end of that combo last weekend on a tournament).

While the EWO will work as a deterrent for normal deepstrikers, I'm not sure if it's worth it. But will depend on your playstyle and meta I guess.

Warptime is definitely strong but there's not much we can do about it as T'au. No other Support System would really help us against it. At least it requires one more step for the opponent to take to achieve the same thing as without. That means one less psychic power to let them hit better or take away our invul save or to give them a 5+ FnP ... and there's always a risk to fail the roll or for the sorcerer to blow himself up. ;)

The thing is, we're talking about EWO on the Stormsurge specifically. What else would you give him? Stim is an option. Velocity Tracker if you'd know that you're facing many units with the FLY keyword. CDS is....okay-ish. Worse than the EWO I'd say. Multi-tracker would require the Stormsurge to shoot all his missiles S5 shooting and the main gun at the same target. Target Lock is unnecessary. Shield Gen and ATS are already auto include. Did I miss a system?

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Jhul'vol
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#36 » Nov 16 2017 03:05

Panzer wrote:Warptime is definitely strong but there's not much we can do about it as T'au. No other Support System would really help us against it. At least it requires one more step for the opponent to take to achieve the same thing as without. That means one less psychic power to let them hit better or take away our invul save or to give them a 5+ FnP ... and there's always a risk to fail the roll or for the sorcerer to blow himself up. ;)

The thing is, we're talking about EWO on the Stormsurge specifically. What else would you give him? Stim is an option. Velocity Tracker if you'd know that you're facing many units with the FLY keyword. CDS is....okay-ish. Worse than the EWO I'd say. Multi-tracker would require the Stormsurge to shoot all his missiles S5 shooting and the main gun at the same target. Target Lock is unnecessary. Shield Gen and ATS are already auto include. Did I miss a system?


True, I've noticed the entire weekend we are just weak against psychic heavy armies (which there were loads of).
I think I would actually take the CDS currently, the meta I'm playing in has loads and loads of infiltrators (Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies) with charging elements. In the best case for me I only get one charge against my army Turn 1, and already been on the receiving end of 5.
While it does not have FtGG, I would expect it to get charged turn 2 at the latest if I can't wipe out the chargers, and knowing my luck I sometimes hit more in Overwatch then with normal shooting :D

Other option would be the stim, statistically giving your opponent at least 3 more wounds to work through.

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