Stormsurge

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 48

Re: Stormsurge

Post#37 » Nov 16 2017 03:15

Panzer wrote:Well I am talking about EWO on the Stormsurge obviously. It's not nearly as good on other units since they lack the punch.
And either you roll very poorly or else I don't see how it can't have any impact on your opponents deployment?
With just the Burst Cannon, Cluster rocket system and SMS you already kill 5 Marines with average rolls and no stabilizing anchor but with ATS obviously. Or about two Terminators.
That means on average every MSU Marine unit is dead if they deep strike within 12" of the Stormsurge and Slaanesh Terminators lose a big chunk of their firepower before even doing anything. So either they are willing to take those casualties or they have to deploy outside of his 12" bubble and aren't in range for melta or plasma rapid fire. It's really not rocket science.

Considering that most armies have any form of reserves to get something mean quick to the enemy lines, yes I do claim that EWO is basically always worth it since you don't really give up anything for it except maybe for Stims or Velocity Tracker (those are even more situational though).

The last time I even managed to fire an EWO was around 4 months ago and the played didn’t care it had no impact on his choice of deep strike and he still made the charge into CC. It feels like wasted points that do nothing almost every game. Not only do I rarely come across deep strikes but when I do it’s often things like Obliterators which would have been outside 12” with or without EWO. So I rather spend the pts on say mutitracker, ATS, shied generator or even CDS which will have a much bigger impact on the game then EWO.


Panzer wrote:I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.

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Jhul'vol
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 56

Re: Stormsurge

Post#38 » Nov 16 2017 03:40

Pottsey wrote:CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.


While I agree with the CDS probably going off more often, don't forget that the Stormsurge can't fire For the Greater Good, as it is classed as a vehicle.
The only vehicle we have that can do that is Longstrike ;)

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Stormsurge

Post#39 » Nov 16 2017 03:52

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.

Well a few things here:
1. An enemy unit can't drop 7" away from a Firewarrior squad. It has to be more than 9" away from EVERY enemy unit.
2. The Stormsurge can't shoot Overwatch for other units since it doesn't have For the Greater Good.
3. I didn't say CDS is just against deep strike but you fielded it as example for a better system in our deep strike szenario but as with 2. it's not THAT useful outside of deep strike szenarios either anyway.


Overall it seems your local meta is very different from the norm. Usually Deep Strike units are very common and setting them up within 12" or outside of it is a very impactful choice as I gave examples for why several times before now.
So I guess if you don't face many lists with reserves I can agree that in your local meta EWO is not a good choice, but from what I've gathered on other forums and personal experience that's far from being the norm.

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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 316

Re: Stormsurge

Post#40 » Nov 16 2017 05:26

Panzer wrote:Target Lock is unnecessary.

It does allow the storm surge to be more mobile. With a natural move of 6", target lock gives it better firing abilities with advancing. This makes the pulse blast cannon better, and it's strength 5 weapons since walking battleship doesn't cover advancing.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Stormsurge

Post#41 » Nov 16 2017 05:32

Advancing is only 3.5" on average though and Target Lock still doesn't allow to shoot heavy weapons after advancing, so no cluster rocket system or PBC or SMS. Basically only the Flamer/BC/AFP if you want to advance. Really not worth the additional 3.5" imo.

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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 316

Re: Stormsurge

Post#42 » Nov 16 2017 09:30

OK so you taught me somethings, Panzer. OK, I now agree your point is very valid. :P

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 48

Re: Stormsurge

Post#43 » Nov 16 2017 11:35

Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.

Well a few things here:
1. An enemy unit can't drop 7" away from a Firewarrior squad. It has to be more than 9" away from EVERY enemy unit.
2. The Stormsurge can't shoot Overwatch for other units since it doesn't have For the Greater Good.
3. I didn't say CDS is just against deep strike but you fielded it as example for a better system in our deep strike szenario but as with 2. it's not THAT useful outside of deep strike szenarios either anyway.


Overall it seems your local meta is very different from the norm. Usually Deep Strike units are very common and setting them up within 12" or outside of it is a very impactful choice as I gave examples for why several times before now.
So I guess if you don't face many lists with reserves I can agree that in your local meta EWO is not a good choice, but from what I've gathered on other forums and personal experience that's far from being the norm.

Sorry I missed that the Stormsurge doesn’t have supporting fire.

I do something get the impression my local group meta is not the same as yours and others. Not sure if this is normal but I find it extremely rare to come across vehicles and flyers are even more rare. As for Fortifications I never seen anyone else use them. I use all 3 myself but I am the odd one out locally. How does that compare to other groups?

My local meta seems to have moved towards hoard.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Stormsurge

Post#44 » Nov 16 2017 11:47

Pottsey wrote:I do something get the impression my local group meta is not the same as yours and others. Not sure if this is normal but I find it extremely rare to come across vehicles and flyers are even more rare. As for Fortifications I never seen anyone else use them. I use all 3 myself but I am the odd one out locally. How does that compare to other groups?

My local meta seems to have moved towards hoard.

Fortifications are everywhere rather are I think and Flyer still have the old edition stigma of either being broken or being useless if the enemy has anti-air so that would explain why they're still rather rare to see overall.

Vehicle are very common in my meta and I rarely see lists online without vehicles either.

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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 316

Re: Stormsurge

Post#45 » Nov 17 2017 02:09

Bought my second one today. Showing some love here.
Naming it Star Eater. Priming it tomorrow. Magnetizing it and paint it over the next couple weeks. Ats, shield generator, stimpack, pulse blaster cannon will be it's primary load out.
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