Stormsurge

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 90

Stormsurge

Post#1 » Nov 11 2017 02:14

How do people use the Stormsurge? I have been looking at using it for a while, but it's guns feel a little underwhelming.

Do people take the Pulse Blast-cannon or the driver cannon? If the former, what weapon profile do you use? Do you try and get into short range to use the monster 2 shots, or just sit back with 6 x S10 AP-1 (ATS) shots?

Like, it's a titan which is quite short ranged, without amazing firepower, and not particularly tough. It's our equivalent of a bane blade and I feel like it pales. What do people think?

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#2 » Nov 11 2017 05:14

There are already a few topics about the Surge, you should go through them. Overall it's mostly what you just said, and people aren't playing it much.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#3 » Nov 11 2017 05:22

Haechi wrote:...people aren't playing it much.

Definitely true. The Stormsurge is a good example of a could-be-better unit. It has a nice smorgasbord of weapons at varying ranges, but ultimately it has a few drawbacks. Drones can't tank wounds for it, it has a surprisingly low toughness for its size, and it can't use anchors on turn 1. It's not an amazing unit, but it's not awful.

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#4 » Nov 11 2017 06:26

Arka0415 wrote:
Haechi wrote:...people aren't playing it much.

Definitely true. The Stormsurge is a good example of a could-be-better unit. It has a nice smorgasbord of weapons at varying ranges, but ultimately it has a few drawbacks. Drones can't tank wounds for it, it has a surprisingly low toughness for its size, and it can't use anchors on turn 1. It's not an amazing unit, but it's not awful.


I would add to its list of flaws that the main guns are laughably useless. D3 shots for D6 damage each is pathetic, and the other one, while being overwhelmingly powerful, does very little maximum damage as well due to a very small volume of fire.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#5 » Nov 11 2017 10:53

I like my stormsurge, a lot. I only have 6 hours of playtime with him. His cannon should be considered a secondary gun. I prefer the pulse blastcannon. I prefer it's 20" medium range most. Special note, it can fire medium range mode under 10" when not in CC. The pulse driver cannon has nice range but it's average damage out put isn't good for the points. I think under 30" the pulse blast cannon will preform better more often.

The cannon isn't the sweet spot for the storm surge, it's the average ~30 shots at 5 strength (cluster rockets ~14, burst cannon 8, smart missles 8). I like the ats and shield generator options to make the unit more valuable. 3rd support system is what ever suits your fancy. I am starting to really like the stim injector. It essentially adds 3 wounds which is equivalent to a 64.8 point value for a investment of 5 points. Also I converted a cool stim injector. :crafty: I think it's a very durable unit with the shield Generator. Using mathhammer it takes ~12.88 shots from a double lascannon to go down on average (BS3). ~15 shots with a stim injector.

Once again I only played 3 games with it, but it has yet to be removed from the table. I want to play two. One in a heavy auxillary dettachment, another in a supreme command dettachment. I magnetized my stormsurge so I can 100℅ adjust it as needed.

I think playing one is fun since it steps away from commander spam(which isn't probably fun for your opponent). I think me playing two in my lists (both 1500 and 2000 points ) will make my tau army different from most players. I don't know if two is good but I want to use it to dominate the middle board. The destroyer missles are also extremely sweet

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#6 » Nov 12 2017 05:40

Lostroninsoul wrote:
The cannon isn't the sweet spot for the storm surge, it's the average ~30 shots at 5 strength (cluster rockets ~14, burst cannon 8, smart missles 8)


You can get that with 64 points of Drones haha.

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Panzer
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Posts: 3548

Re: Stormsurge

Post#7 » Nov 12 2017 07:01

Haechi wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:
The cannon isn't the sweet spot for the storm surge, it's the average ~30 shots at 5 strength (cluster rockets ~14, burst cannon 8, smart missles 8)


You can get that with 64 points of Drones haha.

Not at BS3+, not with AP-1 and not with EWO though. But yeah normally Gun Drones are more point efficient. Doesn't mean the Stormsurge is bad.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#8 » Nov 12 2017 07:21

Panzer wrote:
Haechi wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:
The cannon isn't the sweet spot for the storm surge, it's the average ~30 shots at 5 strength (cluster rockets ~14, burst cannon 8, smart missles 8)


You can get that with 64 points of Drones haha.

Not at BS3+, not with AP-1 and not with EWO though. But yeah normally Gun Drones are more point efficient. Doesn't mean the Stormsurge is bad.


The Stormsurge packs plenty of fun. Those 8 Drones offer good firepower, but the Stormsurge has double the accuracy, AP-1, amazing comparative durability, a main cannon, and Destroyer Missiles.

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#9 » Nov 12 2017 07:56

You're comparing 440 point with 64. My point is that you can do as much, and more, with much less points.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#10 » Nov 12 2017 08:03

Haechi wrote:You're comparing 440 point with 64. My point is that you can do as much, and more, with much less points.

Yeah and my point was that you are ignoring some very important things like Drones not being able to take Support Systems and needing MUCH more shots to achieve the same damage output due their low BS.

DancinHobo
Shas
Posts: 63

Re: Stormsurge

Post#11 » Nov 12 2017 08:10

Lostroninsoul wrote:. I prefer it's 20" medium range most. Special note, it can fire medium range mode under 10" when not in CC.


Why would you though? Less AP, Strength and damage.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#12 » Nov 12 2017 08:25

DancinHobo wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:. I prefer it's 20" medium range most. Special note, it can fire medium range mode under 10" when not in CC.


Why would you though? Less AP, Strength and damage.

Because unless you shoot at something like a tank you won't need the S14 AP-3 D6 and are better off with double the shots with slightly less punch.

DancinHobo
Shas
Posts: 63

Re: Stormsurge

Post#13 » Nov 12 2017 09:02

Panzer wrote:
DancinHobo wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:. I prefer it's 20" medium range most. Special note, it can fire medium range mode under 10" when not in CC.


Why would you though? Less AP, Strength and damage.

Because unless you shoot at something like a tank you won't need the S14 AP-3 D6 and are better off with double the shots with slightly less punch.


I assumed that was it. But as long as there are tanks on board that’s what’s mine is shooting at. With his cannon Atleast

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Emberkahn
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Posts: 90

Re: Stormsurge

Post#14 » Nov 12 2017 09:10

Panzer wrote:
Haechi wrote:You're comparing 440 point with 64. My point is that you can do as much, and more, with much less points.

Yeah and my point was that you are ignoring some very important things like Drones not being able to take Support Systems and needing MUCH more shots to achieve the same damage output due their low BS.


I don't think there is any real dispute that drones are flat out better for s5 shooting. 128 points of drones has identical damage output for less than 1/3 of the price, 150 points of drones accounts for the loss of ATS at still roughly 1/3. That is without even beginning to consider for multipliers like DC and Cadre Fireblade, which really put the nail in the coffin.

EWO isn't particularly useful; enemies just drop outside of 12" and drones can be used as a screening unit for the same effect.

The stormsurge is tougher, but definitely not as tough as 50 drones (which would be the equivalent in points and far scarier, not to mention more useful for protecting good stuff like QFCs and Yvahra)

If anything I think that the redeeming feature of the stormsurge might be the destroyer missiles. With enough markerlights you can reliably nuke a vehicle turn 1 (on top of his other shooting) which should drop his effective points down to like 300, which makes him far more reasonable.

Even then however, as with everything in Tau it seems, he pretty comfortably still loses out to drones.

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Maxwell
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#15 » Nov 12 2017 09:33

Lots of weird decisions here IMO. Why no crushing feet? Why T7? Why no anchors turn 1? Why no battlesuit keyword? Why 6" movement when all other big models get way more? Why not zoidberg?

Is there ANY other titanic (humanoid) model that doesn't get to walk over infantry models? Or that doesn't have crushing feet or similar melee?

Somewhat unrelated but I wish they included "alternate rules" for blast weapons that used templates. Those are so much more fun, add more depth and unit placement thought than d3/d6.

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Beerson
Shas'Saal
Posts: 72

Re: Stormsurge

Post#16 » Nov 12 2017 10:38

Maxwell wrote:uded "alternate rules" for blast weapons that used templates. Those are so much more fun, add more depth and unit placement thought than d3/d6.


yeah, I enjoyed blast tamplates in 4th, especially as it gave our RailHeads some fun options, getting rid of them to make the game easier or w/e doesn't seem right to me, and after doing so not doing a proper rework of weapons that relied on them (railgun) is just bad

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Lostroninsoul
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Posts: 176

Re: Stormsurge

Post#17 » Nov 12 2017 10:48

Panzer wrote:
DancinHobo wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:. I prefer it's 20" medium range most. Special note, it can fire medium range mode under 10" when not in CC.


Why would you though? Less AP, Strength and damage.

Because unless you shoot at something like a tank you won't need the S14 AP-3 D6 and are better off with double the shots with slightly less punch.

With ats,
blast cannon 30": heavy 6,strength 10, ap1, 1 damage
Blast cannon 20": heavy 4 ,strength 12,ap3, 3 damage
Blast cannon 10": heavy 2, strength 14, ap5, 6 damage

Driver cannon 72": heavy D3,strength10,ap4, D6

But your logic is on point with my own.

Haechi wrote:
You can get that with 64 points of Drones haha.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. It's like comparing a quad fusion commander to drone shooting when targeting a tank. Different type of troop, different function.

But if you insist. Here is the results of shooting at a tank (7t, 3save)with all weapons at 18" with an ats:

Blast cannon 20":3.333 damage
30 shots strength 5: 2.5
39.5 gundrones to achieve 5.814 at a value of 316. So yes gun drones can do it cheaper but nearly 40 drones

With anchors down

Blast cannon 20" anchors down: 4.444damag
30 shots: 3.333

Or 52.5 gun drones at 420 points. With a stim injector, shield generator and ats is a value of 437points.

Note about destroyer missles:
At 5 marker lights Non anchored is6.22 damage.
At 5 markerlights anchored 7.78.
Without any markerlights it mathhammers to about 1.33 (9 gun drones).

You can argue about the synergies of cadre fireblade but but cadre can only buff only so many units at one time so you would need multiple with over 10 squads of drones. And at 9" stormsurge damage output would go up considerably with the 10" mode.

At 30" range the storm surge can dish out 8.3 damage (without destroyer missles or anchors) to infantry with a +4save, while drones dish out 0 damage.

Bottom line is I don't think gundrones alone make stormsurge a moot point. Gun drones are good but have a different army function.
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Nov 12 2017 12:20, edited 5 times in total.

DancinHobo
Shas
Posts: 63

Re: Stormsurge

Post#18 » Nov 12 2017 11:44

Maxwell wrote:Why no anchors turn 1?


Im hoping for a stratagem that lets us set up the Stormsurge with anchors deployed.

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