Stormsurge

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#37 » Nov 14 2017 08:54

Twin markerlight would be probably an auto take even if they costed 18 for the set. It would give it a decent chance to make the destroyer missles really really good

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Emberkahn
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#38 » Nov 15 2017 08:28

Re EWO:

I would always consider it poor sportsmanship for your opponent not to be aware you had the EWO and would always remind them. Winning to people making a genuine mistake leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Assuming they know, they probably won't drop within 12; instead they will at 12.

The reason I don't rate it very highly is that for 32 points you can get 2 units of dogs that do the exact same thing, but more effectively; deploy them in front of your units so that enemy can't get within 12. The exception to this is directly in front of you, which was partly why I asked at the start whether people charge them up the board; If so I feel EWO is valuable; if you are just camping in a corner, your screening units should cover it.

So question:

Do people charge their stormsurge up the board, or anchor it in a corner/backline?

If the former, EWO will probably be very useful. If the latter, seems a waste.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#39 » Nov 15 2017 08:52

Emberkahn wrote:Re EWO:

I would always consider it poor sportsmanship for your opponent not to be aware you had the EWO and would always remind them. Winning to people making a genuine mistake leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Honestly, it depends. On the opponent and on what kind of game it is.
If it's an opponent who just can't stay focussed and keeps forgetting everything I wouldn't bother reminding him every time. Eventually people have to learn to pay attention to what they are doing.
Same goes for tournaments. If I told them my loadouts once and even gave them a copy of the army list I expect them to know what my units can do. If he forgets it it's his mistake and deserves getting punished by it. It's a competetive environment after all and there's more to a game than list building and knowing your own rules.

In a casual game against an opponent who is usually focussed and doesn't need to get reminded of everything all the time, I would remind him of the EWO if it seems like he forgot about it though.

Emberkahn wrote:Assuming they know, they probably won't drop within 12; instead they will at 12.

They would at 12.1" then. 12" is still within 12. That's an important difference since 12" is the range for melta, rapid fire plasma, rapid fire storm bolter, max range where you are allowed to announce charges and so on. ;)

Emberkahn wrote:The reason I don't rate it very highly is that for 32 points you can get 2 units of dogs that do the exact same thing, but more effectively; deploy them in front of your units so that enemy can't get within 12. The exception to this is directly in front of you, which was partly why I asked at the start whether people charge them up the board; If so I feel EWO is valuable; if you are just camping in a corner, your screening units should cover it.

Hounds don't do the same thing though. Hounds have to be deployed on the board and die easily against any kind of shooting. They may prevent reserves arriving turn 1, but if the opponent has any note worthy reserves he'd like to have within 12" of the Stormsurge he'll simply wipe the hounds first and then drop in turn 2.

Emberkahn wrote:So question:

Do people charge their stormsurge up the board, or anchor it in a corner/backline?

If the former, EWO will probably be very useful. If the latter, seems a waste.

Depends on the situation honestly. If the enemy has reserves and you a mobile army, then try to keep him close to the rest of your army or else he'll get picked off alone without EWO. Otherwise I don't see why you should try to get closer than 20" for the good PBC profile. Everything except for the Burst Cannons has plenty range and the Burst Cannons have only 2" less range than the good PBC profile but also are only 8 shots so you don't really need to be this close anyway.

EWO is always worth it unless you play a very static gunline and bubble wrap your Stormsurge to no end. Nothing you said so far made me think otherwise.

Pottsey
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Posts: 46

Re: Stormsurge

Post#40 » Nov 15 2017 04:46

Panzer wrote:EWO is always worth it unless you play a very static gunline and bubble wrap your Stormsurge to no end. Nothing you said so far made me think otherwise.

No it’s not always worth it. In my experience it’s pretty poor as it doesn’t seem to have any impact on my opponents or what position they choose to deep strike in. Despite taking EWO just about every game (not always on the stormsturge) I have just about given up on it having any useful impact.

I am not saying its useless but a lot of it comes down to the army and who controls that enemy army. It is very good against the right opponents.

EDIT: What I find more of a deterrent against deep striking is overlapping support fire. So I take counter defence or more often multitracker as it benefits all shooting (not at the same time). Most of my opponents have no second thought factoring in EWO on deep striking but they have learnt to factor in support over watch that and grav drones. Last game partly due to that drone I watched 5 nid chargers failing to get into CC in one round. Which was really nice with the damage I dealt from overlapping overwatch.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#41 » Nov 15 2017 11:52

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:EWO is always worth it unless you play a very static gunline and bubble wrap your Stormsurge to no end. Nothing you said so far made me think otherwise.

No it’s not always worth it. In my experience it’s pretty poor as it doesn’t seem to have any impact on my opponents or what position they choose to deep strike in. Despite taking EWO just about every game (not always on the stormsturge) I have just about given up on it having any useful impact.

I am not saying its useless but a lot of it comes down to the army and who controls that enemy army. It is very good against the right opponents.

Well I am talking about EWO on the Stormsurge obviously. It's not nearly as good on other units since they lack the punch.
And either you roll very poorly or else I don't see how it can't have any impact on your opponents deployment?
With just the Burst Cannon, Cluster rocket system and SMS you already kill 5 Marines with average rolls and no stabilizing anchor but with ATS obviously. Or about two Terminators.
That means on average every MSU Marine unit is dead if they deep strike within 12" of the Stormsurge and Slaanesh Terminators lose a big chunk of their firepower before even doing anything. So either they are willing to take those casualties or they have to deploy outside of his 12" bubble and aren't in range for melta or plasma rapid fire. It's really not rocket science.

Considering that most armies have any form of reserves to get something mean quick to the enemy lines, yes I do claim that EWO is basically always worth it since you don't really give up anything for it except maybe for Stims or Velocity Tracker (those are even more situational though).

Pottsey wrote:EDIT: What I find more of a deterrent against deep striking is overlapping support fire. So I take counter defence or more often multitracker as it benefits all shooting (not at the same time). Most of my opponents have no second thought factoring in EWO on deep striking but they have learnt to factor in support over watch that and grav drones. Last game partly due to that drone I watched 5 nid chargers failing to get into CC in one round. Which was really nice with the damage I dealt from overlapping overwatch.

I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#42 » Nov 16 2017 12:07

Here's my observation. Most good deep strike units are shooting units. However, many players are tempted by the possibility of getting that cool deep strike-assisted charge, something which was largely not possible in previous editions. Shooting may be better, but charges have an appeal that makes them common.

However, I agree- EWO offers competent defense against both shooting and assault units. It may not prevent enemies from landing close to you, but it does let things like the Stormsurge absolutely unload on them!

It seems to me that many powerful deep strike shooting units have 12" range, such as units with Plasma Pistols, Storm Bolters. I can't remember the details of that Slaanesh combo but probably that too. EWO disuades both rapid-fire weapons and charges as well.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#43 » Nov 16 2017 12:14

Arka0415 wrote: I can't remember the details of that Slaanesh combo but probably that too.

Terminators fully equipped with Combi-Plasma and the 2CP Stratagem that lets them shoot an additional time at the end of the shooting phase. Makes 20 Plasma shots from 5 guys when in Rapid fire range with potentially 10 of them getting +1 on to-wound rolls with another 1CP Stratagem. Of course together with re-rolling 1s from a nearby Lord or Daemon Prince or a Sorcerer casting Prescience for a +1 on to-hit rolls.

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Jhul'vol
Shas'La
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#44 » Nov 16 2017 02:06

Against the full Slaanesh Termi combo an EWO won't work though.
They will just drop in on 12.1", then use a sorcerer with Warp Time to get close. Considering a Sorcerer can cast twice, they can have both Prescience and Warp Time.
(I've been on the receiving end of that combo last weekend on a tournament).

While the EWO will work as a deterrent for normal deepstrikers, I'm not sure if it's worth it. But will depend on your playstyle and meta I guess.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#45 » Nov 16 2017 02:24

Jhul'vol wrote:Against the full Slaanesh Termi combo an EWO won't work though.
They will just drop in on 12.1", then use a sorcerer with Warp Time to get close. Considering a Sorcerer can cast twice, they can have both Prescience and Warp Time.
(I've been on the receiving end of that combo last weekend on a tournament).

While the EWO will work as a deterrent for normal deepstrikers, I'm not sure if it's worth it. But will depend on your playstyle and meta I guess.

Warptime is definitely strong but there's not much we can do about it as T'au. No other Support System would really help us against it. At least it requires one more step for the opponent to take to achieve the same thing as without. That means one less psychic power to let them hit better or take away our invul save or to give them a 5+ FnP ... and there's always a risk to fail the roll or for the sorcerer to blow himself up. ;)

The thing is, we're talking about EWO on the Stormsurge specifically. What else would you give him? Stim is an option. Velocity Tracker if you'd know that you're facing many units with the FLY keyword. CDS is....okay-ish. Worse than the EWO I'd say. Multi-tracker would require the Stormsurge to shoot all his missiles S5 shooting and the main gun at the same target. Target Lock is unnecessary. Shield Gen and ATS are already auto include. Did I miss a system?

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Jhul'vol
Shas'La
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#46 » Nov 16 2017 03:05

Panzer wrote:Warptime is definitely strong but there's not much we can do about it as T'au. No other Support System would really help us against it. At least it requires one more step for the opponent to take to achieve the same thing as without. That means one less psychic power to let them hit better or take away our invul save or to give them a 5+ FnP ... and there's always a risk to fail the roll or for the sorcerer to blow himself up. ;)

The thing is, we're talking about EWO on the Stormsurge specifically. What else would you give him? Stim is an option. Velocity Tracker if you'd know that you're facing many units with the FLY keyword. CDS is....okay-ish. Worse than the EWO I'd say. Multi-tracker would require the Stormsurge to shoot all his missiles S5 shooting and the main gun at the same target. Target Lock is unnecessary. Shield Gen and ATS are already auto include. Did I miss a system?


True, I've noticed the entire weekend we are just weak against psychic heavy armies (which there were loads of).
I think I would actually take the CDS currently, the meta I'm playing in has loads and loads of infiltrators (Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies) with charging elements. In the best case for me I only get one charge against my army Turn 1, and already been on the receiving end of 5.
While it does not have FtGG, I would expect it to get charged turn 2 at the latest if I can't wipe out the chargers, and knowing my luck I sometimes hit more in Overwatch then with normal shooting :D

Other option would be the stim, statistically giving your opponent at least 3 more wounds to work through.

Pottsey
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#47 » Nov 16 2017 03:15

Panzer wrote:Well I am talking about EWO on the Stormsurge obviously. It's not nearly as good on other units since they lack the punch.
And either you roll very poorly or else I don't see how it can't have any impact on your opponents deployment?
With just the Burst Cannon, Cluster rocket system and SMS you already kill 5 Marines with average rolls and no stabilizing anchor but with ATS obviously. Or about two Terminators.
That means on average every MSU Marine unit is dead if they deep strike within 12" of the Stormsurge and Slaanesh Terminators lose a big chunk of their firepower before even doing anything. So either they are willing to take those casualties or they have to deploy outside of his 12" bubble and aren't in range for melta or plasma rapid fire. It's really not rocket science.

Considering that most armies have any form of reserves to get something mean quick to the enemy lines, yes I do claim that EWO is basically always worth it since you don't really give up anything for it except maybe for Stims or Velocity Tracker (those are even more situational though).

The last time I even managed to fire an EWO was around 4 months ago and the played didn’t care it had no impact on his choice of deep strike and he still made the charge into CC. It feels like wasted points that do nothing almost every game. Not only do I rarely come across deep strikes but when I do it’s often things like Obliterators which would have been outside 12” with or without EWO. So I rather spend the pts on say mutitracker, ATS, shied generator or even CDS which will have a much bigger impact on the game then EWO.


Panzer wrote:I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.

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Jhul'vol
Shas'La
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#48 » Nov 16 2017 03:40

Pottsey wrote:CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.


While I agree with the CDS probably going off more often, don't forget that the Stormsurge can't fire For the Greater Good, as it is classed as a vehicle.
The only vehicle we have that can do that is Longstrike ;)

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#49 » Nov 16 2017 03:52

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.

Well a few things here:
1. An enemy unit can't drop 7" away from a Firewarrior squad. It has to be more than 9" away from EVERY enemy unit.
2. The Stormsurge can't shoot Overwatch for other units since it doesn't have For the Greater Good.
3. I didn't say CDS is just against deep strike but you fielded it as example for a better system in our deep strike szenario but as with 2. it's not THAT useful outside of deep strike szenarios either anyway.


Overall it seems your local meta is very different from the norm. Usually Deep Strike units are very common and setting them up within 12" or outside of it is a very impactful choice as I gave examples for why several times before now.
So I guess if you don't face many lists with reserves I can agree that in your local meta EWO is not a good choice, but from what I've gathered on other forums and personal experience that's far from being the norm.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#50 » Nov 16 2017 05:26

Panzer wrote:Target Lock is unnecessary.

It does allow the storm surge to be more mobile. With a natural move of 6", target lock gives it better firing abilities with advancing. This makes the pulse blast cannon better, and it's strength 5 weapons since walking battleship doesn't cover advancing.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#51 » Nov 16 2017 05:32

Advancing is only 3.5" on average though and Target Lock still doesn't allow to shoot heavy weapons after advancing, so no cluster rocket system or PBC or SMS. Basically only the Flamer/BC/AFP if you want to advance. Really not worth the additional 3.5" imo.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#52 » Nov 16 2017 09:30

OK so you taught me somethings, Panzer. OK, I now agree your point is very valid. :P

Pottsey
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Posts: 46

Re: Stormsurge

Post#53 » Nov 16 2017 11:35

Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:I find it mind boggling how you can think the EWO is not worth it but CDS is against deep striker.
The biggest thread from deep striking units is shooting, not close combat. Without any re-rolls the enemy has only a 28% chance to get the 9" charge off and even with re-rolls it's about a 50% chance of success at best.
And even if you have so many problems against deep striking melee units the EWO should still prove more useful than CDS since EWO works against every single deep striking unit that gets set up within charge range while CDS fails to work after shooting Supporting Fire once (keep in mind that doing Supporting Fire prevents from shooting overwatch for the rest of that turn!) or if you fail to kill the charging unit and are in melee. It's also the EXACT same kind of shooting except that one only hits on 6s with re-rolls and the other is with BS4+ (potentially 3+). Taking EWO also doesn't stop you from using Supporting Fire anyway.


I really don't get your reasoning against EWO.

CDS isn’t just against deep strikes so it gets activated more often and so does more damage over the course of the game. Plus CDS can help protect against deep strikes that are more then 12” away from the Stormsurge.
Say I have a Firewarrior squad 6” away from the Stormsurge. Now a deepstrike unit appears 7” away from the Firewarrior squad and charges it from 7” away. That’s outside the 12” for EWO to trigger but inside the range for CDS or multitracker to do extra damage. Add on top both those systems benefit outside of deepstrikers.

Well a few things here:
1. An enemy unit can't drop 7" away from a Firewarrior squad. It has to be more than 9" away from EVERY enemy unit.
2. The Stormsurge can't shoot Overwatch for other units since it doesn't have For the Greater Good.
3. I didn't say CDS is just against deep strike but you fielded it as example for a better system in our deep strike szenario but as with 2. it's not THAT useful outside of deep strike szenarios either anyway.


Overall it seems your local meta is very different from the norm. Usually Deep Strike units are very common and setting them up within 12" or outside of it is a very impactful choice as I gave examples for why several times before now.
So I guess if you don't face many lists with reserves I can agree that in your local meta EWO is not a good choice, but from what I've gathered on other forums and personal experience that's far from being the norm.

Sorry I missed that the Stormsurge doesn’t have supporting fire.

I do something get the impression my local group meta is not the same as yours and others. Not sure if this is normal but I find it extremely rare to come across vehicles and flyers are even more rare. As for Fortifications I never seen anyone else use them. I use all 3 myself but I am the odd one out locally. How does that compare to other groups?

My local meta seems to have moved towards hoard.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#54 » Nov 16 2017 11:47

Pottsey wrote:I do something get the impression my local group meta is not the same as yours and others. Not sure if this is normal but I find it extremely rare to come across vehicles and flyers are even more rare. As for Fortifications I never seen anyone else use them. I use all 3 myself but I am the odd one out locally. How does that compare to other groups?

My local meta seems to have moved towards hoard.

Fortifications are everywhere rather are I think and Flyer still have the old edition stigma of either being broken or being useless if the enemy has anti-air so that would explain why they're still rather rare to see overall.

Vehicle are very common in my meta and I rarely see lists online without vehicles either.

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