Stormsurge

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#19 » Nov 12 2017 11:59

Emberkahn wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Haechi wrote:You're comparing 440 point with 64. My point is that you can do as much, and more, with much less points.

Yeah and my point was that you are ignoring some very important things like Drones not being able to take Support Systems and needing MUCH more shots to achieve the same damage output due their low BS.


I don't think there is any real dispute that drones are flat out better for s5 shooting. 128 points of drones has identical damage output for less than 1/3 of the price, 150 points of drones accounts for the loss of ATS at still roughly 1/3. That is without even beginning to consider for multipliers like DC and Cadre Fireblade, which really put the nail in the coffin.

EWO isn't particularly useful; enemies just drop outside of 12" and drones can be used as a screening unit for the same effect.

The stormsurge is tougher, but definitely not as tough as 50 drones (which would be the equivalent in points and far scarier, not to mention more useful for protecting good stuff like QFCs and Yvahra)

If anything I think that the redeeming feature of the stormsurge might be the destroyer missiles. With enough markerlights you can reliably nuke a vehicle turn 1 (on top of his other shooting) which should drop his effective points down to like 300, which makes him far more reasonable.

Even then however, as with everything in Tau it seems, he pretty comfortably still loses out to drones.

The low BS of the Drones poses another problem though. Against -1 to-hit modifier their damage output gets halfed already and if an opponent can get -2 to hit by any means the damage output of Gun Drones becomes 0.
While with a -1 to-hit modifier the Stormsurge loses only 1/4th of its damage output and with a -2 to-hit modifier only half of it.
I'd say Gun Drones are only better when there are no to-hit modifier.

EWO is very useful. Either the enemy drops within 12" and gets shot to hell or he drops outside of it and is out of range for Melta and Plasma Rapid fire.
It also doesn't just protect the Stormsurge, it protects every unit that's close to it. Stormbolter units are rather popular with Marines currently, which would have 4 shots per model at 12" and while the Stormsurge doesn't care much about that kind of shooting other units do which you can just place near the Stormsurge to benefit from his EWO aura.

The benefit of the Drones Saviour Protocol can't get argued away, I'll give you that. Gun Drones are one of the best units we can bring after all and not just for their damage output.

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#20 » Nov 12 2017 12:55

In the end, even though I'm taking a crap on the Surge, I'm going to play 3 of them in an upcoming game because I know I can't compete with the restrictions they have there, so I might as well just have fun.

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leo1925
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#21 » Nov 12 2017 03:14

Haechi wrote:In the end, even though I'm taking a crap on the Surge, I'm going to play 3 of them in an upcoming game because I know I can't compete with the restrictions they have there, so I might as well just have fun.


What kind of restrictions?

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#22 » Nov 12 2017 04:00

leo1925 wrote:
Haechi wrote:In the end, even though I'm taking a crap on the Surge, I'm going to play 3 of them in an upcoming game because I know I can't compete with the restrictions they have there, so I might as well just have fun.


What kind of restrictions?


None. Full out ETC mode. I just don't have a 100 drones a 10 Commanders. So I'm just gonna have fun =]

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#23 » Nov 13 2017 07:26

So, I actually have a question. My list is made of 4 stormsurges with blascannon, a Coldstar Commander with two marker drones and 3 Marksmen.

The surges have 3 systems, 2 of which will be the Shield Generator and the Advanced Targeting Systems of course. What should I get for the 3rd one? Velocity? Early Warning? Stims?

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#24 » Nov 13 2017 07:29

I'd always go with EWO, though since you'll be playing with 4 SS and two of them already cover a lot of ground you might want to play two of them with Velocity Tracker in case you're facing Stormraven or other flyer.

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#25 » Nov 13 2017 07:55

My concern about EWO is this : do I care if they deep strike 12.1" away instead of 9"? Especially considering that the Surge in Overwatch is quite potent too.

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Panzer
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#26 » Nov 13 2017 08:04

Haechi wrote:My concern about EWO is this : do I care if they deep strike 12.1" away instead of 9"? Especially considering that the Surge in Overwatch is quite potent too.

It's not about the melee units lol. Managing a 9" charge is not very likely anyway.
But it pushes units out of range for their melta, out of plasma rapid fire range and out of stormbolter rapid fire range (not that important for the SS but for more squishy units near the SS). You really don't want a unit of Slaanesh Terminators dropping in Rapid fire range who shoot twice, re-roll 1s and get +1 on to-wound rolls. ;)

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#27 » Nov 13 2017 08:09

Alright, fair enough, I'll try 2 EWO and 2 Velocity then =]

DancinHobo
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#28 » Nov 13 2017 09:09

I like the idea of counter fire. I feel like it would be worth it on the Surge with all the shots he is pumping out! Don’t know though. Gonna try it soon.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#29 » Nov 13 2017 11:03

Haechi wrote:Alright, fair enough, I'll try 2 EWO and 2 Velocity then =]


And remember if a unit drops within 12" of both EWO SS both can shoot at it #nomoreunit :D

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Haechi
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#30 » Nov 13 2017 11:49

Nymphomanius wrote:
Haechi wrote:Alright, fair enough, I'll try 2 EWO and 2 Velocity then =]


And remember if a unit drops within 12" of both EWO SS both can shoot at it #nomoreunit :D


Nobody is going to stupid enough to drop inside 12" of an EWO Surge once you told him you have it. Right? Right??

Nymphomanius
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#31 » Nov 13 2017 11:53

Haechi wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Haechi wrote:Alright, fair enough, I'll try 2 EWO and 2 Velocity then =]


And remember if a unit drops within 12" of both EWO SS both can shoot at it #nomoreunit :D


Nobody is going to stupid enough to drop inside 12" of an EWO Surge once you told him you have it. Right? Right??


It's their job to ask, your job to wait until they're deployed and blast them into Kingdom come :biggrin:

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Beerson
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#32 » Nov 13 2017 12:00

Nymphomanius wrote:It's their job to ask, your job to wait until they're deployed and blast them into Kingdom come :biggrin:

yeah, you can just "forget" to mention that unless they ask you, nothing wrong with that :evil:

Bolter&Rail
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#33 » Nov 13 2017 04:18

Ya I question if a stormsurge will ever win its points back in a competitive game, but I do find it to be an excellent jack-of-all-trades and clean-up operations unit. While I don't take EWO on it, I find that whatever most armies deepstrike in the stormsurge can just unleash havoc on the following turn.

If you anchor and/or master of war the guy he can dish some damage, but still hard to chew threw 440+pts of infantry or vehicles with just the one-use missiles and a smattering of successful damages with the big gun.

I agree that some good strategems could really help it out. My competitive list currently runs one, but without drones tanking wounds he is surprisingly fragile for how intimidating it looks. Armies will either ignore it or kill it quickly i find.

Jacket
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#34 » Nov 13 2017 06:32

Bolter&Rail wrote:Ya I question if a stormsurge will ever win its points back in a competitive game, but I do find it to be an excellent jack-of-all-trades and clean-up operations unit. While I don't take EWO on it, I find that whatever most armies deepstrike in the stormsurge can just unleash havoc on the following turn.

If you anchor and/or master of war the guy he can dish some damage, but still hard to chew threw 440+pts of infantry or vehicles with just the one-use missiles and a smattering of successful damages with the big gun.

I agree that some good strategems could really help it out. My competitive list currently runs one, but without drones tanking wounds he is surprisingly fragile for how intimidating it looks. Armies will either ignore it or kill it quickly i find.

Once again unless it's a commander drone or some troops. It's over costed and usually useless in our dex. Still mad I have to wait until march to see the Tau dex.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#35 » Nov 13 2017 10:32

I can't wait until next month. I'm piloting TWO stormsurges in a 1500 point small event. :) I just want to juggernaut them into the middle of the board.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Stormsurge

Post#36 » Nov 13 2017 11:46

Off topic as usual: the new tyranid dex has all the pics of nids fighting us tau i know we all anticipate march including myself but...

I noticed our markerlights, jsj and our double fire weapon units. Surge riptide. And throw in the OSC i guess.
Anyways maybe all those things will be stratagems


2 surges juggernauting to middle of board
I was just going to say i miss the 12" movement. though i feel 6 is fair to fluff more than Purpose.
Thing needs to close on those superheavies n such.
Had more utility with speed.


own 4 surges?
I have two
Ones going to have an extrem kitbash one day
though i can see myself having three. For one on each side of the custom. But 4!? Lol
Ia love it or hate it Modle.
It was one of the things that made me restart 40k. I seen the surge and was sold; again.

The Twin burst cannons/flamer/afl should have a twin markerlight type option ;).

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