Krootox?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Zadocfish
Shas
Posts: 12

Krootox?

Post#1 » Nov 12 2017 11:45

I don't see a lot of discussion on this husky guy, and I don't really get it. They don't have much in terms of Saves, none whatsoever, but they're have great S and good T... and, more importantly, they have 3 Wounds and a solid gun with great range, as well as a good melee attack set and above-average movement. More than all that, they're actually cheaper individually than Crisis Suits with no weapons!

So, is there a specific reason that these things aren't used much, despite being so cheap and being the only things in the army that are unambiguously good in close combat?
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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Krootox?

Post#2 » Nov 12 2017 11:56

The reason is that if I wanted a similar gun I'd just take Pathfinder which already are very useful on their own.
Krootox die very fast and their models are expensive money-wise.
Unless you play a Kroot themed list I don't see a reason to play them.....in a Kroot themed list however I'd spam them. ;)

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Zadocfish
Shas
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Re: Krootox?

Post#3 » Nov 13 2017 01:07

For one thing, thank you for acknowledging the money point. When I see people talking lists and viability and all that, money is never brought up whatsoever, and it weirds me out. Like, drone/commander spam is an amazing list, but it's easily over $200 for the Commanders alone, and the least expensive Drone you can find is $3 by itself...

Anyways, as for the Pathfinders... consider that one Pathfinder with Rail Rifle is only about 6 points less than a Krootox. And only has one wound, and two less toughness. And the entire range of a Pulse Carbine less range. And does the same damage (minus the extra wound for getting extremely lucky with rolls), with the same weapon type.

Think about it this way. Krootox has the same BS of a Pathfinder, and will usually be getting 2 shots each because its double-tap range is only 6" less than the Rail Rifle's max range. The group of 10 Pathfinders has 1 more AS, but the 2 less toughness makes that point nearly moot. A group of Krootox costs 38 less points and has only one fewer wounds... and while the Pathfinders have Markerlights to make them a bit better (but deny them effectiveness while moving), a Krootox can actually hurt things in close combat, and is the only unit in the entire army that can do so reliably that doesn't take up an HQ slot.

I'll admit that they're kind of frail because of that ridiculously tiny armor save (though they have the same T as a Crisis Suit), but each is also less than half the points of a loaded-out Crisis Suit. You can easily bring 3 for the price of 1 Fusion Crisis; that's 9 wounds and 3 S7 shots from all the way across the table, or 6 from up-close, on 3 bodies that can reliably charge. Frail or no, your opponent has to expend valuable time killing them, or they'll do real damage... and a little over a hundred points for tying up your enemy's dakka for a turn isn't really that bad, especially given the consequences for failure in killing them, in this case.

I'm just saying, money aside, they seem quite overlooked. And even then, a full unit of three is, AT MOST, about $90, which isn't really that bad for this game.
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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Krootox?

Post#4 » Nov 13 2017 01:18

You're comparing the wrong weapons. The Rail Rifle is worlds better than the Kroot gun by pure stats. The Ion Rifle is the one you want to compare it with which costs a lot less points than a Rail Rifle.

2x Krootox = 68p
7x Pathfinder (3xIon Rifle) = 68p

The Krootox have 2x 48" Rapid fire 1 S7 AP-1 D3 shots.
The Pathfinder have 3x 30" Rapid fire 1 S7 AP-1 D1 shots which you can overcharge to Heavy 1d3 S8 AP-1 D1 shots to wound MEQs on 2s and get more shots above Rapid fire range. And additionally 4 Markerlights/Carbines to re-roll 1s or shoot 8 S5 shots at 18".
So the Krootox might have the edge against multi-wound models but the Pathfinder are better anti-infantry and offer more utility.
That aside, Crisis with CIBs are the better source for that kind of shooting. Or Commander with CIB/MP. Or Ghostkeel with CIR. Or even just Broadsides with HYMP.

Krootox also aren't good in melee. They are just not terrible. 2 WS3+ S6 AP0 D2 attacks won't scare anybody. A good melee unit either has good AP or a lot more attacks. Or both ideally.

I can assure you even without the money-issue they aren't overlooked. They just aren't worth taking compared with other units.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2147

Re: Krootox?

Post#5 » Nov 13 2017 01:35

Panzer wrote:I can assure you even without the money-issue they aren't overlooked. They just aren't worth taking compared with other units.

I agree here. Krootox are, in my opinion, right up there with Kroot Carnivores, Piranhas, Riptides, etc. Sure, it might have a role, but it has too many downsides. Now, if we could hide multiple Krootox in a Kroot Carnivore unit and the gun was a little better (maybe Rapid-Fire 2, that'd be solid). At the end of the day though, it has essentially no save, low close combat attack volume, and really no unique or useful rules.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Krootox?

Post#6 » Nov 13 2017 03:05

Zadocfish wrote:I don't see a lot of discussion on this husky guy, and I don't really get it. They don't have much in terms of Saves, none whatsoever, but they're have great S and good T... and, more importantly, they have 3 Wounds and a solid gun with great range, as well as a good melee attack set and above-average movement. More than all that, they're actually cheaper individually than Crisis Suits with no weapons!

So, is there a specific reason that these things aren't used much, despite being so cheap and being the only things in the army that are unambiguously good in close combat?

Krootox are ok when you take 3 to 6 of them with a shaper. With 1 marker token that’s reroll’s 1’s to hit and reoll 1’s to wound. It also cheaply fills out slots to get the bonus 3CP formation and they can rapid fire out to 24" which is an advantage over the Iron Pathfinders which are doing half the damage at that range unless they overcharge and risk killing themselves.

With T5 and W3 they should survive better than the pathfinders and with the reroll wounds do nice damage.

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Zadocfish
Shas
Posts: 12

Re: Krootox?

Post#7 » Nov 13 2017 03:10

Huh. Somehow I did not see that they only had 2 attacks.

Yeah, 2 attacks with no AP isn't great, even with 2 damage and 6 Strength. They are hands-down the best non-HQ melee unit the Tau have, with the possible exception of a mass of Kroot Carnivores, but... yeah, they still aren't very good at melee.

Thanks for the replies. I feel a little silly now.
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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2147

Re: Krootox?

Post#8 » Nov 13 2017 03:52

Zadocfish wrote:Huh. Somehow I did not see that they only had 2 attacks.

Yeah, 2 attacks with no AP isn't great, even with 2 damage and 6 Strength. They are hands-down the best non-HQ melee unit the Tau have, with the possible exception of a mass of Kroot Carnivores, but... yeah, they still aren't very good at melee.

Thanks for the replies. I feel a little silly now.

Hey, no need to feel silly! Lots of Tau units are underpowered right now; Krootox are just another good example. With luck, they'll find their niche in the Codex! (That chance is pretty low though, I think, as Kroot have always been the forgotten part of the Tau books)

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 113

Re: Krootox?

Post#9 » Nov 13 2017 03:56

Zadocfish wrote:For one thing, thank you for acknowledging the money point. When I see people talking lists and viability and all that, money is never brought up whatsoever, and it weirds me out. Like, drone/commander spam is an amazing list, but it's easily over $200 for the Commanders alone, and the least expensive Drone you can find is $3 by itself...


Me and others here also got sick of the cost problem, so we play on things like Table-Top Simulator, which are pretty straightforward when you get the hang of them, and allow us to spend $$$ on fun looking armies, rather than having to sell our souls for a third riptide.

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nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 806

Re: Krootox?

Post#10 » Nov 13 2017 02:01

The Krootox has some strong competition in the medium-heavy ranged shooting category with a pretty typical weapon profile of S7 AP -1 D3 damage. We have a lot of choices in that category of weapon and the Krootox are just at the cheaper/easier to kill end of that choice range. They lack much synergy with the other units and characters you would typically take due to their Kroot keyword instead of <Sept> and as a result of being Cavalry rather than Infantry. I have 6 and I use them in a fair number of games - they are OK in shooting and less awful than the Tau average in combat. With their weapon range you hardly ever want them anywhere near combat because in close quarters they die fast to rapid fire weapons. If anyone pays them any attention they are as good as dead.

If you have or like the models then go ahead and use them, they are neither outstandingly good or bad. If the models do not appeal or the price of the models puts you off then you would probably just use one of the many other options.

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