Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Arka0415
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Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#1 » Nov 27 2017 01:26

Note: I'm not going to argue that overcosted units are priced correctly. However, using the new Uplinked Markerlight stratagem, the math does show some major improvement in their capabilities. Take a look.

Also, remember- this math isn't predicting damage values. Treat the efficiency values (ppw) as "strength ratings" for different units.


With the new Uplinked Markerlight stratagem, it's quite easy to attain that coveted +1 to-hit benefit on the Markerlight table. Uniquely, this stratagem is one that our Commanders can't benefit (much) from, seeing as they are already BS2+. By lighting up a unit, and hitting it with BS3+ firepower, the viability of normally-BS4+ Missile Pods, Heavy Rail Rifles, Seeker Missiles, and other large weapons increases considerably. Let's look at some math.

For the purpose of these calculations, let's use the following units.
1. Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
2. XV8 w/ 2x CIBs, ATS; 2x Gun Drones (102)
3. XV8 w/ 2x Missile Pods, ATS (98)
4. XV8 w/ 2x Fusion Blasters; 2x Gun Drones (100)
5. Ghostkeel w/ Fusion Cascade, 2x Fusion Blasters, Target Lock, Stimulant Injector; 2x Stealth Drones (205)
6. Hammerhead Gunship w/ Railgun; 2x Gun Drones (171)
7. Broadside w/ Heavy Rail Rifle, 2x SMS, Target Lock (189)

Let's shoot at a basic Space Marine Predator. I'm going to discount the damage and cost any Burst Cannons, SMS, and Gun Drones. These weapons are perfectly capable of damaging other targets simultaneously- it's not 7th edition anymore.
1. 7.78 damage (22.62ppw)
2. 1.78 damage (48.31ppw)
3. 1.33 damage (73.68ppw)
4. 2.33 damage (36.05ppw)
5. 4.67 damage (43.89ppw)
6. 1.78 damage (87.08ppw)
7. 2.67 damage (55.81ppw)

Obviously, with these numbers, the Fusion Commander stands out, with the other Fusion-equipped units coming in close second, and the Broadside, Hammerhead, and Missile Pod XV8 at the end. However, if we have +1BS from our new stratagem available...

1. 9.08 damage (19.38ppw)
2. 2.77 damage (31.04ppw)
3. 2.07 damage (47.34ppw)
4. 3.63 damage (23.14ppw)
5. 7.26 damage (28.24ppw)
6. 2.59 damage (59.85ppw)
7. 4.15 damage (35.90ppw)

The Fusion Commander sticks out, but some other units, such as the Fusion Ghostkeel, Fusion XV8, and Broadside do considerably better than before.

Also, remember that long-range units such as Broadsides have a much higher likelihood of getting that Markerlight buff, since they can engage nearly any target on the field. Conversely, short-range units such as Ghostkeels and XV8s have less target flexibility.

I'm not saying Broadsides or Ghostkeels are good now (they're not), but easier access to +1BS means that things are looking better and better for them.

What do you think?

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Ghostly Daemon
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#2 » Nov 27 2017 06:10

Arka0415 wrote:7. Broadside w/ Heavy Rail Rifle, 2x SMS, Target Lock (189)
~~~
7. 2.67 damage (55.81ppw)
~~~
7. 4.15 damage (35.90ppw)

I'm not saying Broadsides or Ghostkeels are good now (they're not), but easier access to +1BS means that things are looking better and better for them.


This is extremely interesting and could make the absolute world of difference.

I love my Broadside, it's such a cool model and just looks so intimidating on the field. I used one in my 3rd (?) game of 8th edition and it wiped the floor with some Ynnari - it destroyed a Wave Serpent nice and easy. However, this was indeed only about 2 or 3 weeks after 8th edition was released. I haven't used it since then, but now with our stratagem, I think I may field it in my next game and see what happens - along with a Target Lock, it could be quite nasty.
:fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :evil:

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#3 » Nov 27 2017 06:26

Ghostly Daemon wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:7. Broadside w/ Heavy Rail Rifle, 2x SMS, Target Lock (189)
~~~
7. 2.67 damage (55.81ppw)
~~~
7. 4.15 damage (35.90ppw)

I'm not saying Broadsides or Ghostkeels are good now (they're not), but easier access to +1BS means that things are looking better and better for them.


This is extremely interesting and could make the absolute world of difference.

I love my Broadside, it's such a cool model and just looks so intimidating on the field. I used one in my 3rd (?) game of 8th edition and it wiped the floor with some Ynnari - it destroyed a Wave Serpent nice and easy. However, this was indeed only about 2 or 3 weeks after 8th edition was released. I haven't used it since then, but now with our stratagem, I think I may field it in my next game and see what happens - along with a Target Lock, it could be quite nasty.


Why bother with the target lock still if you are aiming to get the +1 to hit modifier as the 5th tier in the ML list.. Then you also have the 3rd one that replace the use of the Target Lock. I think the ATS would be a better choice upping the damage potential even further.

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Raikoh067
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#4 » Nov 27 2017 07:02

How does the heavy bombardment hammerhead compare to the broadside in this light? At already BS3+, they would be BS2+ with the exact same loadout.

TX7 Heavy Bombardment Hammerhead Gunship [10 PL, 239pts]: 2x Smart missile system, 2x High-yield missile pod

XV88 Broadside Battlesuits [9 PL, 202pts]
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x High-yield missile pod, 2x Smart missile system

The Hammerhead has 2 higher toughness and 13 wounds.
But the Broadside can take support systems, namely, ATS...

EDIT: I just realized you were getting these numbers use the HRR. Well, nvm then lol...

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leo1925
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#5 » Nov 27 2017 07:03

Ghostly Daemon wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:7. Broadside w/ Heavy Rail Rifle, 2x SMS, Target Lock (189)
~~~
7. 2.67 damage (55.81ppw)
~~~
7. 4.15 damage (35.90ppw)

I'm not saying Broadsides or Ghostkeels are good now (they're not), but easier access to +1BS means that things are looking better and better for them.


This is extremely interesting and could make the absolute world of difference.

I love my Broadside, it's such a cool model and just looks so intimidating on the field. I used one in my 3rd (?) game of 8th edition and it wiped the floor with some Ynnari - it destroyed a Wave Serpent nice and easy. However, this was indeed only about 2 or 3 weeks after 8th edition was released. I haven't used it since then, but now with our stratagem, I think I may field it in my next game and see what happens - along with a Target Lock, it could be quite nasty.


Missileside or Railside?

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Ghostly Daemon
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#6 » Nov 27 2017 07:05

leo1925 wrote:Missileside or Railside?


Railside - honestly it was great!

I'm looking forward to using it again - I'm probably going to use a Shield Gen instead of a TL or ATS though, it's going to be a big target and as Steg said, 3ML hits gives the same as a TL anyways.
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leo1925
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#7 » Nov 27 2017 07:18

Ghostly Daemon wrote:
leo1925 wrote:Missileside or Railside?


Railside - honestly it was great!

I'm looking forward to using it again - I'm probably going to use a Shield Gen instead of a TL or ATS though, it's going to be a big target and as Steg said, 3ML hits gives the same as a TL anyways.


Then i would advise against target lock, the railside will most likely hitting the target with markerlights.

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Rizzle
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#8 » Nov 27 2017 07:28

This is a really interesting angle to take on this puzzle - I like it! Or rather, I can see myself more comfortably bringing in unit's I've felt silly for fielding previously.

One wrinkle with this analysis is that due to the once-per-phase-per-stratagem limitation in Matched Play you can only rely on making efficient shots against a single enemy unit. That means this doesn't scale very well but this is worth leveraging as it allows us to bring in units with a different sort of flexibility to Commanders.

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Arka0415
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#9 » Nov 27 2017 07:40

StealthKnightSteg wrote:Why bother with the target lock still if you are aiming to get the +1 to hit modifier as the 5th tier in the ML list.. Then you also have the 3rd one that replace the use of the Target Lock. I think the ATS would be a better choice upping the damage potential even further.

Target Lock was just a random example pick. Velocity Tracker, Shield Generator, or maybe ATS would be better probably.

Rizzle wrote:One wrinkle with this analysis is that due to the once-per-phase-per-stratagem limitation in Matched Play you can only rely on making efficient shots against a single enemy unit. That means this doesn't scale very well but this is worth leveraging as it allows us to bring in units with a different sort of flexibility to Commanders.

That's why long-range units like Broadsides are important. No matter where a unit is, a Broadside can probably hit it. Commanders, with their short range, also don't need the +1 to hit bonus. Flexible long-range units like Sunsharks, Broadsides, Hammerheads, and Support Turrets would all be great choices to focus down targets at long range.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#10 » Nov 27 2017 11:11

This stratagem is super awesome. Playing a 3 man crisis team with dc and 6 marker drones is a decent way to get 5 maker lights. (~1 markerlights from the first two, stratagem on average will add ~2 more. Last four should on average add ~2.3 ). While there isn't room for bad dice rolls,... sign me up. I have two squads ready to go. Getting 5 markerlights across the board is really good. Cheapest decent crisis team for carrying drones is probably all plasma guns (279). Missle pod teams are the safest for that plan, but I'll prefer cib teams.

Jacket
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#11 » Nov 28 2017 12:10

I remain unimpressed with it. While it’s not bad it doesn’t seem like a game winning strat. It’s a niche thing you can pull out if needed. Most of the time my ml’s last one round anyways since opponents tend to shoot them or charge them. Getting one perfect ML +1bs is just not going to be enough to win games on its own without support.If the perfect alpha strike commander build can’t win the biggest tournament’s anymore I doubt a less effective unit with +1bs will.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#12 » Nov 28 2017 01:35

Markerlights Tree

1. Re-roll 1s.
2. Seeker Missiles use users BS.
3. No penalty to heavy weapons if you moved, and no penalty to assault weapons if you advanced.
4. Ignore cover.
5. +1BS.

This stratagem gives you a guaranteed two markerlights on the target which means you already have at least 1 markerlight on the target to use it (a total of 3). I'm sure someone has done the math on here, but this means the likelihood of you getting multiple enemy units with +5 markerlights on them is high.

It also means that continued markerlight loses further into the game will not be as punishing since you can tuck a Fireblade or a Firesight Marksman safely away and still dish out a good amount of markerlight stacks.

This will also help in smaller point games. You can pull more markerlight sources out and replace them with more dakka.
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stayhandsome
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#13 » Nov 28 2017 06:10

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Markerlights Tree

1. Re-roll 1s.
2. Seeker Missiles use users BS.
3. No penalty to heavy weapons if you moved, and no penalty to assault weapons if you advanced.
4. Ignore cover.
5. +1BS.

This stratagem gives you a guaranteed two markerlights on the target which means you already have at least 1 markerlight on the target to use it (a total of 3). I'm sure someone has done the math on here, but this means the likelihood of you getting multiple enemy units with +5 markerlights on them is high.

It also means that continued markerlight loses further into the game will not be as punishing since you can tuck a Fireblade or a Firesight Marksman safely away and still dish out a good amount of markerlight stacks.

This will also help in smaller point games. You can pull more markerlight sources out and replace them with more dakka.


I believe that the minimum is 2, not 3 ML with this strategem. It replaces the markerlight you hit with D3+1, not in addition to it, unless I misunderstand the wording. Still, by the law of averages you’ll be looking at 3 ML most of the time.

Late game if all you’ve got with markerlights is a Fireblade, an easy 3 ML is still gonna be nice for your heavy weapon suits retreating from combat, or your Coldstars flying around 40”

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#14 » Nov 28 2017 11:23

And so it is.

I still think it will be a useful stratagem considering we only have three other generic ones.
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Emberkahn
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#15 » Nov 29 2017 09:25

Great analysis! Thanks for sharing it with us!

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Arka0415
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#16 » Nov 29 2017 10:40

AnonAmbientLight wrote:And so it is.

I still think it will be a useful stratagem considering we only have three other generic ones.


It's not just useful, it's absolutely fantastic. Get 8-9 Command Points in your army and use it every turn. It's beautiful.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#17 » Nov 29 2017 11:06

To bad its not add d3
Would of helped the tetra.

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Arka0415
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Re: Uplinked Markerlights and traditionally "overcosted" units

Post#18 » Nov 30 2017 01:11

AleksandrGRC wrote:To bad its not add d3
Would of helped the tetra.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't help the Tetra, although "adding D3 Markerlights" is exactly what it does.

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