Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
User avatar
Reaper13
Shas
Posts: 31
Contact:

Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#1 » Dec 26 2017 01:44

In 8th edition everyone seems to hate on Tau. The cries of "They took away jump shoot jump!", "Marker lights are now Trash!" and "Riptides are way too overpriced!" are numerous, however, Tau can still function very well without these things. There are a few units in particular that stand out too me.
1. Tau Breachers
10 man Unit with guardian drone and devilfish. Pricey, but dangerous, that 5" profile is nasty. I Always run Darkstrider with these guys, and they absolutely shred infantry. They are strength 6 at 5" and Darkstrider reduces the toughness of an enemy unit when they shoot at it, resulting in 2+ing to wound Meqs. Once you wound, you have ap -2 you Meqs get a save of 5+ and most infantry get a save of 6+ or no save at all. Not to mention Darkstrider letting them fall back and shoot, and toting a 2+ to hit markerlight. :D
2. Drones
8 point ablative wounds for our suits? YES! And it carries a markerlight or 2 pulse carbines? YES! Drones provide cheap markerlights or extra shots, but their main use is keeping our big expensive suits alive. "Six damage lascannon shot? My drone will take it." :crafty:
3. Commanders
Quad fusion command is the bane of all armored or heavy infantry units. Slaying those big characters or monsters has never been so easy. You drop in 9" away so the melta kicks in, with one markerlight you hit on a 2+ and re-roll ones. Then, strength 8 means you 4+ to wound even the toughest vehicles. Ap -4 means if they get a save at all it will be a 6+ and then the damage rate is ridiculous. Not to mention you can utilize all of the other weapons and equipment available to them.
The way tau can remain competitive is finding the units that work, or good synergy, (E.G. Darkstrider and breachers.)
Don't laugh at the guy spamming drones all over, they are extremely useful.
"All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu

User avatar
AnonAmbientLight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 894

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#2 » Dec 26 2017 03:05

As far as game design goes and effectiveness, T'au are in a pretty bad spot. Granted, we do not have our codex yet so it's really hard to say how good they are in general.

To the things you outlined, breachers are OK, but it is a unit that is also very meh. A hell of a thing to invest in and its benefits and synergy with other units and your overall play style can often be at odds of what T'au are meant to do. I think a proper codex could highlight and open the path to interesting options for them though.

Drones are good and really have always been good. They seem more flexible and more of an impact that previous editions, which is great. They are, however, missing that special something that really makes them stand out. A codex, again, will fix these issues but they are probably one of the more interesting and fun things to come out of this edition.

Commanders are too good, or their Crisis equivalents are too bad. Or both! Again, a codex will help open the way for new list ideas and better balance.

Again, it is important to remember that we do not have our codex yet, so any hard or fast definitives are premature. However, when I do look at other codexs out right now I see how they have more synergy and more list possibilities than T'au do. This in turn makes them stronger than T'au are. That's just how things go more or less when it comes to codexs vs indexs.

I wager we probably do not have too much longer to wait, and I hope we will be rewarded for our efforts. Don't snub your nose at any of your units just yet.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 78

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#3 » Dec 26 2017 03:13

@reaper 13
You could be right about
1. breachers
2. drones
3. Commanders

But point is that those are 3 unit types among many in index and you should not be restricted only to those when building your army.

therefore that so called "crying" is fully correct IMO.
And every one is looking forward to see codex and have hope that GW will not screw up (or already did not screw up as codex is most probably ready or even already during print).

User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1780

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#4 » Dec 26 2017 05:10

2 good units does not make a good army.

Breachers I don't count, as they got the obvious issue that they are only good if they are "cheap and threatening" as they are not fast nor durable, and while the fish helps with speed and durability-it throws cheapness out the window.
Basically they shine in super-dense terrain where being hidden while advancing is a thing, or in zone mortalis. regular games is not their forte.

And to make matters worse, both the good units (commanders and drones) are good in the wrong way.
Commanders are supposed to command, but their command ability is laughable (worst HQ in the game for commanding probably) and they are good as a gun platform.
The drones are supposed to be a support unit for battlesuits and stuff, but the battlesuits are so bad (commander gunboat excluded) and drones so goddamn effective at just throwing shots that they are used as the main strike force instead, with the units they are supposed to support being pushed aside.


The tau index needs such a massive overhaul its not even funny.

User avatar
CmdrCASh
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 169

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#5 » Dec 26 2017 07:55

I have to point out that the melta rule doesn't kick in on a standard manta strike as it is just out of range (more than 9"), just like how deepstrikers need to roll 9 to successfully charge into combat :sad:
Of course, that doesn't take away too much from the effectiveness of a QFC...
Ka'ash Sept

User avatar
Agent00abe
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 339

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#6 » Dec 27 2017 04:54

CmdrCASh wrote:I have to point out that the melta rule doesn't kick in on a standard manta strike as it is just out of range (more than 9"), just like how deepstrikers need to roll 9 to successfully charge into combat :sad:
Of course, that doesn't take away too much from the effectiveness of a QFC...


This is exactly the point I was going to make.
No deepstriking your commanders and activate your melta rules.
Sorry :(
Does this Railgun make me look fat?

User avatar
gunrock
Shas
Posts: 110

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#7 » Dec 27 2017 06:10

I am by no means an expert, but I think the list here of good units seems a bit narrow. You touched upon some of the obvious winners (commanders, drones, and breachers), but there are several other reasonable to good units in the Tau index at the moment that people have had luck with.

The short list is: (Source: viewtopic.php?f=52&t=26950)

Arka0415 wrote:High-Tier Units:
- Commander w/ Fusion Blasters
- Commanders w/ Cyclic Ion Blasters
- Commanders w/ Missile Pods
- Fireblades
- Fire Warriors
- Breachers
- Devilfish
- XV8s w/ Cyclic Ion Blasters
- XV8s w/ Flamers
- Stealthsuits
- Pathfinders
- Pathfinders w/ Special Weapons
- Gun Drones


To that you could possibly add a short list of units that can be contextually good in the right list: Coldstar Commanders, Y'Vahras, XV-9's, Longstrike, Darkstrider (possibly), Vespids, and Piranhas. My point being there are still a fair number of viable units, and the picture seems not nearly so bleak (and will hopefully improve with the codex, fingers crossed).

Reaper13 wrote:"Marker lights are now Trash!"

Marker lights are still excellent. If you look at the Mathhammer weapons analysis they still significantly increase shooting efficiency, synergize with ion weapons (some of the best in the edition), and we also just got a new stratagem that makes the higher tiers more accessible. I think the issue was more that other armies have similar ways of accessing reroll's on ones without the issues associated with the fragility of markerlight carrying units (pathfinders, drones, and to some extent fire warriors/fireblades, my apologies to whoever first made this point could not find the source).

Reaper13 wrote:Quad fusion command is the bane of all armored or heavy infantry units. Slaying those big characters or monsters has never been so easy. You drop in 9" away so the melta kicks in, with one markerlight you hit on a 2+ and re-roll ones. Then, strength 8 means you 4+ to wound even the toughest vehicles. Ap -4 means if they get a save at all it will be a 6+ and then the damage rate is ridiculous. Not to mention you can utilize all of the other weapons and equipment available to them.


Yes, they are amazing, as CmdrCash stated you can't manta strike at less then 9'' to take advantage of the improved damage. To advantage to dropping at 9'' is to charge after shooting to tie up the vehicle, otherwise 18'' is the way to go.

Reaper13 wrote:The way tau can remain competitive is finding the units that work, or good synergy, (E.G. Darkstrider and breachers.)
Don't laugh at the guy spamming drones all over, they are extremely useful.


I agree with your fundamental point and the underlying message that we should look for other synergies that may have been overlooked. I'm blanking on what thread referenced this (arrrggg hate not having sources), but the issue I think was more a matter of relative efficiency. Comparable to the Darkstrider+Breacher+Devilfish combo is running Fireblade+Drones+Devilfish which has similar efficiency and other advantages (range, saviour protocols, no faction restrictions, some other things).

Again, not an expert, but I don't think it's all doom and gloom in Tau Empire. Also, I just finished my 3rd commander and the new model looks amazing. I feel zero guilt on running multiple commanders.
All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; Unto the place whither the rivers go, Thither they go again.

User avatar
Reaper13
Shas
Posts: 31
Contact:

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#8 » Jan 02 2018 05:27

It would appear my point has been slightly missed. I did not say that these are the only good units, just that they in particular work well for the way I play. I was unaware that melta works that way, my impression was that I must drop in 9" away, and that means my 9" range can hit the target therefore activating the melta. 12 Breachers may put out more shots and be more effective than ten with Darkstrider, but Darkstrider letting them fall back and shoot in my opinion is worth it. That and his ability letting them 2+ to wound T4 units, and carrying a 2+ to hit markerlight.


Arka0415 wrote:
To that you could possibly add a short list of units that can be contextually good in the right list: Coldstar Commanders, Y'Vahras, XV-9's, Longstrike, Darkstrider (possibly), Vespids, and Piranhas. My point being there are still a fair number of viable units, and the picture seems not nearly so bleak (and will hopefully improve with the codex, fingers crossed).

Reaper13 wrote:"Marker lights are now Trash!"

Marker lights are still excellent. If you look at the Mathhammer weapons analysis they still significantly increase shooting efficiency, synergize with ion weapons (some of the best in the edition), and we also just got a new stratagem that makes the higher tiers more accessible. I think the issue was more that other armies have similar ways of accessing reroll's on ones without the issues associated with the fragility of markerlight carrying units (pathfinders, drones, and to some extent fire warriors/fireblades, my apologies to whoever first made this point could not find the source).
[/quote]


The quote of "Markerlights are now trash" has been taken out of context, it was given as an example of why some people think Tau are no longer competitive. It was not my opinion. Regardless, their effectiveness compared to 7th edition is much worse in some ways but better in others. I also tend to generally ignore FW units as they are banned in most local tournaments in my area.
Oh, and Vespid are extremely good, I'm waiting in the hope of plastic models for them.
"All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu

User avatar
Vres'ka
Shas'Saal
Posts: 54

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#9 » Jan 03 2018 07:55

I disagree about the general opinion about Breachers.

Breachers fill a primordial role in this edition: Melee deterrent.

8th is so focused in more available Melee (even if less lethal) that a purely shooting army needs a way to protect it's gunline. And believe me when I say this: you WILL get charged.

And I need to point out that Stealthsuits and Ghostkeel are now great, as they either did not increase in points or only so lightly, and their effectiveness has increased a lot.

Stealthsuits are, simply put, the new Crisis suit equivalent. (I know, less versatile.... but crisis suit try, stealth suits do it)
We alone are to guard stars that used to be our homes.

User avatar
Reaper13
Shas
Posts: 31
Contact:

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#10 » Jan 08 2018 09:29

Tau gunlines are not , in my opinion, a viable option, this edition we are about staying mobile and just barely out of range of charge.
Vres'ka wrote:I disagree about the general opinion about Breachers.

Breachers fill a primordial role in this edition: Melee deterrent.

8th is so focused in more available Melee (even if less lethal) that a purely shooting army needs a way to protect it's gunline. And believe me when I say this: you WILL get charged.
Sorry if you don't agree but that's my honest summary of tau right now.
"All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu

User avatar
Zadocfish
Shas'Saal
Posts: 70

Re: Tau -Overlooked Most OP Army?

Post#11 » Jan 08 2018 10:50

Vres'ka wrote:I disagree about the general opinion about Breachers.

Breachers fill a primordial role in this edition: Melee deterrent.


... What? No, a solid wall of Strikers with Pulse Rifles in front of a Fireblade and flanked on either side by Gun Drones is a melee deterrent. Whatever tries to charge into that first is going to get SHREDDED if they have less than 5 Toughness, which is the case for many major melee units. Our Melee deterrent is For the Greater Good, and the best units to use that with are the ones with an effective range of around 9" or more, because that's the range where most of your opponents will be charging from.

The only way to use Breachers as a deterrent is to hide them behind a line of other units, then shoot their assailants as they fall back. But Battlesuits are too fast for Breachers to keep up with and Strikers are much more worried about anti-infantry gunfire than charging units (again, charges against Tau infantry lines don't tend to end well in my experience). And until a unit DOES charge whatever you're hiding the Breachers with, the Breachers will be sitting back and twiddling their thumbs for 8 points each, while the opponent will just pepper them with gunfire until dead before charging anyways. At least Strikers will be able to do something every turn, even if it's only one S5 shot each per turn it's better than the nothing that Breachers get...
I am a Christian.

Return to “Tau Tactics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests