Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

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Arka0415
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Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#1 » Jan 08 2018 11:51

I know this topic was covered extensively some months ago, but recent discussion in Gunrock's Archetypal Static/Agressive list thread (here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27009) has brought the issue back to light: is it better to take 3xCIBs, or 2xCIB+ATS?

By and large, I've come to the conclusion that these two builds have slightly different roles.

2xCIB + ATS:
+ 10 points cheaper (per model)
+ More effective against Sv2+ units
+ Lower chance to deal mortal wounds to the user
- Much less effective against light infantry
- Lower spike damage
- Weak against units with Invulnerable saves
- Particularly weak against Sv2+/3++ units

3xCIB:
+ Very effective against light infantry
+ Higher spike damage
+ Less weak against units with Invulnerable saves
+ Can take a Drone Controller without loss of efficiency
- 10 points more expensive (per model)
- Slightly weaker against Sv2+ units
- Slightly higher chance to deal mortal wounds to the user

With these profiles in mind, the roles become clear. 2xCIB+ATS is more effective against units such as Terminators, Land Raiders, and other durable Sv2+ units without effective Invulnerable saves. The 3xCIB build just as good against heavy units, but is much stronger against light units at the cost of being slightly more expensive.

Because of these two roles, I've come to the conclusion that the 3xCIB build is in fact the stronger option.

The 3xCIB build can be used as an alpha-strike asset against tough targets like Terminators, Custodes, and monsters. Once this role is performed it can either act as a light infantry sweeper or continue to engage high-armor targets. Adding a Drone Controller not only improves the build's overall damage, but also makes a full unit of 3 cost only +17 points compared to a 2xCIB+ATS unit. A properly Markerlight-supported XV8 unit with the 3xCIB loadout will deal more damage to light infantry than a Flamer XV8 squad will, even excluding Gun Drones. As such a 3xCIB XV8 unit can use Manta Strike to support an anti-armor alpha strike on turn one before turning its guns to light infantry to engage on turn 2. CIBs in the anti-infantry role offer not only longer range, higher strength, and better AP than Flamers, but their flexibility also removes the need for Homing Beacon Stealthsuits (which are required for the turn 1 Flamer combo).

With this tactical role in mind, I personally am convinced that the following build is the optimal loadout for an all-purpose alpha strike XV8 unit:

Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x CIBs, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)


I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts on the matter too.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#2 » Jan 09 2018 06:51

even though 6 Gun Drones (with the DC near) is a lot of dakka. I did find that for survival of the Drones combined with the Crisis Suits after the initial strike I find it better to have 4 Gun Drones paired with 2 Shield Drones. So the Shield Drones take some heat off when the drone unit is targeted seperatly. Normally my 6 Gun Drones die after an initial volley of fire and then my Crisis Suits are open for other weapomry. With 2 Shield Drones I usually manage to keep 2-3 Gun drones that then can act to soak up some damage from the Crisis Suits keep them alive. This is just pure from an opponents shooting fase perspective I found, I'm not counting the combat fase as I suffer that one more often then not also with my Flamer build Crisis. But the shooting directed at the Crisis and drone unit should not matter how the Crisis are build.

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GND
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#3 » Jan 09 2018 06:54

I stopped using 3xCIB and favor 2xCIB + ATS because of 3 reasons:

1. I find that spending 30 points on drones to make a unit everyone wants to kill more durable is better than spending 30 points on 9 shots on a unit everyone will want to kill even more.

2. With how cover works in this edition, 2+ save isn't the hallmark of Terminators or Landraiders, but marines in cover. And they are everywhere. And there is only so much markerlights I can spare.

3. Overloading 6 CIBs is a chore and takes long. Overloading 9 is worse.

My meta also doesn't include any truly horde lists and I'm not lacking anti-infantry firepower elsewhere, so the effectiveness against light targets doesn't concern me personally.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#4 » Jan 09 2018 08:03

Arka0415 wrote:With this tactical role in mind, I personally am convinced that the following build is the optimal loadout for an all-purpose alpha strike XV8 unit:

Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x CIBs, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)


I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts on the matter too.


I think the optimal alpha strike load out is at 359 points for 8 fusion blasters,dc,markerlight drones. So far I haven't had any regrets. It functionally replaces two fusion blaster commanders (320 without drones). This allows commanders to carry CIBs and ats. I think commanders are better CIB carriers as the ats efficiency shines most on that platform. In combat commanders hit on WS 3+ with 4 attacks, so having 1 ap helps kill an extra infantry or two.

That being said, at the moment I am actually walking away from using CIBs and using only fusion blasters.

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Haechi
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#5 » Jan 10 2018 11:47

I like this analyse. Thank you. I enjoy more and more CIB.

gunrock
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#6 » Jan 11 2018 02:54

Arka0415 wrote:I know this topic was covered extensively some months ago, but recent discussion in Gunrock's Archetypal Static/Agressive list thread (here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27009) has brought the issue back to light: is it better to take 3xCIBs, or 2xCIB+ATS?


Hey Arka, thanks for the shout out!

Lostroninsoul wrote:I think the optimal alpha strike load out is at 359 points for 8 fusion blasters,dc,markerlight drones. So far I haven't had any regrets. It functionally replaces two fusion blaster commanders (320 without drones). This allows commanders to carry CIBs and ats. I think commanders are better CIB carriers as the ats efficiency shines most on that platform. In combat commanders hit on WS 3+ with 4 attacks, so having 1 ap helps kill an extra infantry or two.

That being said, at the moment I am actually walking away from using CIBs and using only fusion blasters.


I also love me a fusion blaster, which is only superceded by the love of multiple fusion blasters on the same model, but I think it’s worth noting that even the ‘ideal’ XV-8 Fusion load out is worse than an unsupported 4x fusion commander, or 3x multi-tracker commander, or even a mixed commander fusion loadout (ex. 3x fusion + shield generator). To illustrate here’s the raw numbers:

XV-8 9x Fusion vs. Landraider w.o markerlight
315 points/
6.56 wounds
48.01 ppw

XV-8 9x Fusion vs. Landraider w. markerlight
315 points/
7.66 wounds
41.12 ppw

Commander 4x fusion blaster vs. Landraider:
w.o. markerlight :
Damage: (1.215 x 3) = 4.86
Cost/damage: 32.922 ppw.

4x fusion W. Markerlight
Damage: 5.67
Cost: 160
Cost/Damage: 28.219ppw

3x fusion blaster:
Damage: (1.215 x 3) = 3.645
unit cost: 139 points
Cost/damage: 38.134 ppw

3x fusion blaster with multitracker (reroll 1s)
(1.418 x 3) = 4.254
Unit cost: 141
Cost/damage: 33.145 ppw

With that in mind, if you want similar firepower to the fusion XV-8 loadout, you can take 3x fusion loadouts, put what you want on them, and still beat the best case XV-8 scenario. I think people have fleshed out these numbers before, but it’s a useful reminder why 4x fusion commander is THE fusion load out of choice.

I think CIB’s on commanders are great, the reduced number of higher accuracy shots which offsets overcharge seems good. Also, perhaps they run the ATS load-out better then the XV-8, with four hard points. I think 9x CIB XV-8 vs. 4x CIB commander is a different story.

Arka0415 wrote:
With this tactical role in mind, I personally am convinced that the following build is the optimal loadout for an all-purpose alpha strike XV8 unit:

Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x CIBs, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)


I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts on the matter too.


I completely agree with all of the points you brought up on CIB. Despite being the same gun and having some overlap, CIB x3 vs. CIB x2 +ATS are very different loadout’s that cover different ranges. I think part of the strength of CIB x3 on XV-8 is that it more efficiently packs our other strong anti-infantry weapon (gun drones), and the support system they need without the opportunity cost of loading these systems on a commander. Here’s some reference numbers to try to back up what we know about CIB without ATS:
[I apologize in advance if I mess any of these numbers up, I’m not a math guy. Please let me know if you see any errors so I can correct them]

XV 9x CIB vs. IG w.o. markerlight
288 points/
9.38 wounds
= 30.7 ppw

XV8 CIB 9x CIB vs. IG w. Markerlight
288 points/
10.94 wounds
= 26.32 ppw

Commander 4x CIB vs. IG w.o. markerlight
148 points/
6.94 wounds
= 21.326 ppw

Commander 4x CIB vs. IG w. Markerlight
148 points/
8.10 wounds
= 18.27 ppw

Commander 4x CIB + 2 gun drones vs. IG w.o. markerlight
164 points/
6.94 + 0.74 = 7.68 wounds
= 21.35 ppw

XV 8 CIB + DC + 6 drones vs. IG w.o. markerlight
323 points/
8.338 + 5.333 = 13.671
= 23.63 ppw

XV 8 CIB + DC + 6 drones vs. IG w. Markerlight
323 points/
9.724 + 6.222 = 15.946
= 20.256 ppw

So without any drones or markerlight, 9x CIB on XV-8 is worse then a commander with 4x CIB in terms of ppw, While commanders seem to get marginally worse with gun drones vs. GEQ the XV8+DC and drones significantly closes the gap.
Its really quite amazing that any XV-8 loadout gets that close to the commander. The only scenario where it really loses out is with markerlight, but compared to a drone +8 CIB +DC build it’s actually by a pretty small margin.
The loadout ends up playing really well to all of the XV-8’s strengths, more virtual hard points that are less valuable individually (thus allowing drone controller), more bodies (and thus more drones). Also didn’t check it, but XV-8’s can keep improving their efficiency with more marker lights while the commander will hit an efficiency wall.
I think 8x CIB +DC, and 9x CIB are demonstrably excellent XV-8 load outs, and actually quite competitive with the commander equivalent. I think ATS + CIB is also great. Best of all, they are very complementary. It brings me a lot of joy to know that XV-8s have a role, even if they are not technically the ‘best’ the fact that you can put them up against the commander and end up close is darn impressive.

Thoughts?
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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#7 » Jan 11 2018 12:30

gunrock wrote:XV-8 9x Fusion vs. Landraider w. markerlight
315 points/
7.66 wounds
41.12 ppw

Xv8 team 8 FB/ 1DC / markerlight stratagem /6marker drones (assumed 5.333 markerlights )
359 points
9.074 wounds
39.56 ppw
The real advantage is now the target is all lit up with markerlights for a finishing unit. 2fb commanders with full drones cost a little more than my proposed crisis team. Mix and match how you want it, you will still need about 700points of dedication to down that kind of 18wound target in a single manta strike.


Land raiders aren't common in my meta versus 7t 3+ save models. On 7t 3+ models the efficiency between crisis team and 2 fb commander in respect to PPW is even more similar. That's about ~360 points of dedication to down common 10 wound models , whether it's 2 FB commanders w/ drones or my crisis team.

I figure if it cost double or less of model dedication, to delete enemies targets, than I am doing ok if half that force survives the return volley.

Since this form is about CIBs. I will admit I am rocking 2 Cib commanders because it will help with infantry. I have accidentally fired more shots than I should have in a game months ago, to prevent this (#pride/honor)I found it's helpful to buy at least 3 D3 dice to help make overcharging easier to follow correctly. While d6 dice do work, having d3 dice help clearly draw a line between number of shots and number of successful hits. It also makes the damage to follow easy as well. But that's just my expierence of going from D3 roll(shots), three volleys of D6 roll(hit), D6 (wound), D6 (opponent rolling his saves) back to D3 (damage).
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Jan 11 2018 02:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#8 » Jan 11 2018 12:54

As a general CIB related question...anyone else not getting a ton of mileage out of their CIBs?

Don't get me wrong, they are the best gun we have for a BS 4+ unit, but I just find myself rolling a TON of dice only to get 1 or 2 wounds per volley against MEQ. They remove cheap T3 GEQ in droves, but the game meta is super Power Armor heavy atm with tons of ways to take them to a 2+ TEQ. For a unit that costs nearly 400 points with drones, I'd expect to be taking over 100 points off the table a turn reliably with them with spikes into the 150 point range and dips down to about 50....not standard damage at 50 with spikes to 75 and dips to 30.
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#9 » Jan 11 2018 01:04

CDR_Farsight wrote:As a general CIB related question...anyone else not getting a ton of mileage out of their CIBs?

Don't get me wrong, they are the best gun we have for a BS 4+ unit, but I just find myself rolling a TON of dice only to get 1 or 2 wounds per volley against MEQ. They remove cheap T3 GEQ in droves, but the game meta is super Power Armor heavy atm with tons of ways to take them to a 2+ TEQ. For a unit that costs nearly 400 points with drones, I'd expect to be taking over 100 points off the table a turn reliably with them with spikes into the 150 point range and dips down to about 50....not standard damage at 50 with spikes to 75 and dips to 30.

Overcharge only on models requiring more than 1 wound to down a model. I get decent mileage on mine doing this way.

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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#10 » Jan 11 2018 01:14

Lostroninsoul wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:As a general CIB related question...anyone else not getting a ton of mileage out of their CIBs?

Don't get me wrong, they are the best gun we have for a BS 4+ unit, but I just find myself rolling a TON of dice only to get 1 or 2 wounds per volley against MEQ. They remove cheap T3 GEQ in droves, but the game meta is super Power Armor heavy atm with tons of ways to take them to a 2+ TEQ. For a unit that costs nearly 400 points with drones, I'd expect to be taking over 100 points off the table a turn reliably with them with spikes into the 150 point range and dips down to about 50....not standard damage at 50 with spikes to 75 and dips to 30.

Overcharge only on models requiring more than 1 wound to down a model. I get decent mileage on mine doing this way.


I'm talking without overcharge. I overcharge facing actual terminators and vehicles, but my meta is very MEQ in cover heavy. But the overcharge is still only AP -1, so it doesn't solve the core problem of horrible -AP modifiers we have.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#11 » Jan 11 2018 02:45

CDR_Farsight wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:As a general CIB related question...anyone else not getting a ton of mileage out of their CIBs?

Don't get me wrong, they are the best gun we have for a BS 4+ unit, but I just find myself rolling a TON of dice only to get 1 or 2 wounds per volley against MEQ. They remove cheap T3 GEQ in droves, but the game meta is super Power Armor heavy atm with tons of ways to take them to a 2+ TEQ. For a unit that costs nearly 400 points with drones, I'd expect to be taking over 100 points off the table a turn reliably with them with spikes into the 150 point range and dips down to about 50....not standard damage at 50 with spikes to 75 and dips to 30.

Overcharge only on models requiring more than 1 wound to down a model. I get decent mileage on mine doing this way.


I'm talking without overcharge. I overcharge facing actual terminators and vehicles, but my meta is very MEQ in cover heavy. But the overcharge is still only AP -1, so it doesn't solve the core problem of horrible -AP modifiers we have.


Against 4t +3 saves the CIb commander(3 cib/1ats and 4 cib math is the same) should put about 3.333 wounds on average (3.88888 with rerolls of one) So your rolls seem slightly below average. I haven't done crisis team. Quad Plasma weapons on a commander would deal 3.703 wounds(4.330 with RR 1's). If Meq is an issue, I reccommend a plasma team.

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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#12 » Jan 11 2018 03:05

Lostroninsoul wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote: Overcharge only on models requiring more than 1 wound to down a model. I get decent mileage on mine doing this way.


I'm talking without overcharge. I overcharge facing actual terminators and vehicles, but my meta is very MEQ in cover heavy. But the overcharge is still only AP -1, so it doesn't solve the core problem of horrible -AP modifiers we have.


Against 4t +3 saves the CIb commander(3 cib/1ats and 4 cib math is the same) should put about 3.333 wounds on average (3.88888 with rerolls of one) So your rolls seem slightly below average. I haven't done crisis team. Quad Plasma weapons on a commander would deal 3.703 wounds(4.330 with RR 1's). If Meq is an issue, I reccommend a plasma team.


BS2+ commanders are a completely different calculation than BS4+ suits.

CIBs are better at MEQ in the open on paper, but it just feels wrong rolling 27 dice and killing 4 dudes at 18" (which seems to be closer to 2 dudes on a lot of occasions). I'd rather roll 18 Dice (plasma) and kill 5 at 12" or 2 at 24". With the tougher saving throws, it seems like plasma gets you to the average more often than not while the CIBs allow more chances for "slightly better than average armor save rolls" to nerf your effectiveness.

It feels strange to say this...but I think I'm leaning towards going back to plasma. Especially since I play very close in lists and have 2x QFC to take care of most armor.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Arka0415
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#13 » Jan 11 2018 06:54

As I mentioned in the other thread, CIBs aren't an answer to ordinary Tactical Marines etc. Use them against GEQ, TEQ, other heavy infantry, and vehicles. For killing ordinary Space Marines I suggest Gun Drones and ordinary anti-infantry firepower. Unless your local meta is heavy power armor spam, I don't think dedicated anti-MEQ firepower is actually necessary.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#14 » Jan 11 2018 07:15

Another thing that you can note arka is that the ats cib crisis team is slightly better in combat.

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DarkRaptor
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#15 » Jan 13 2018 02:47

I have been considering a deep striking squad of xv8 with CIB so this thread is very useful info all around. The advantage that the crisis unit has over the commanders is the sheer number of bodies it is when manta striking. I would use homing beacons either way, but you want to get crisis up in the mix, shoot and assault. The fastest way to knock the opponents shooting out is to tie them up. Crisis are VERY survivable this edition compared to last and shooting them than getting into assault is where they shine. They become a thorn in your opponents side and act as a buffer unit to protect your commanders (which we all know we have/need).

I have been using flamers up till now to do this, but I have been very disappointed with the actual amount of damage they deliver, so was looking at either CIB or fusions. Fusions do outshine the cib for the above noted marines in cover. where the ion blasters just get them to 3+ which still makes them very hard to dislodge.
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Arka0415
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Re: Revisiting CIB Builds (Again!)

Post#16 » Jan 13 2018 02:52

DarkRaptor wrote:I have been considering a deep striking squad of xv8 with CIB so this thread is very useful info all around. The advantage that the crisis unit has over the commanders is the sheer number of bodies it is when manta striking.

I run two units like this, and they are very effective! I definitely recommend trying them out. Against really everything from light infantry to Terminators to medium vehicles they can output a punishing amount of damage.

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