Phased Ion XV9 v Crisis CIB and Plasma

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Phased Ion XV9 v Crisis CIB and Plasma

Post#1 » Jan 11 2018 04:25

Scrub everything I said earlier since I missed keyword INFANTRY for Darkstrider's ability and tried to math while also attempting to leave a conversation and work... :P

The Standard XV9 Hazard with Phased Ion would go as follows (279 Points)

MEQ in cover (2+) with 5ML and ATS
24 Shots -> 18.64 Hits (9.32 AP-5 / 9.32 AP-2) -> Wounds 4.66 AP-5 / 4.66 AP-2 -> 4.66 + 3.08 = 7.74 Unsaved Wounds

MEQ in cover with no ML support
24 Shots -> 12 Hits (2 AP-5 / 10 AP-2) -> Wounds 1 AP -5 / 5 AP-2 -> 1 + 2.5 = 3.5 Unsaved Wounds

Crisis Team with 9 CIBs (288 Points)

Compared to 9 CIB against MEQ in cover with ML Support
27 Shots -> 20.59 Hits -> 13.59 Wounds -> 6.79 Unsaved Wounds (outperformed by Phased Ion surprisingly)

9 CIB against MEQ in cover no ML
27 Shots -> 13.5 Hits -> 8.91 Wounds -> 2.94 Unsaved Wounds (still worse than Phased Ion)

Crisis Team with 9 Plasma (277 Points)

Compared to 9 Plasma in rapid fire with ML
18 Shots -> 14 Hits -> 9.24 Wounds -> 7.7 Unsaved Wounds (Seems like this is still the choice for MEQ in cover)

9 Plasma MEQ in cover no ML
18 Shots -> 9 Hits -> 6 Wounds -> 3 Unsaved Wounds (Ion actually on top without ML support)


Here it is reworked....I would not have thought it, but to me, the Phased Ion Still comes out on top. It has a way higher potential damage output than Plasma even if the averages are close, plus you get more durable suits with better assault defense (and they look cooler). The CIB has other targets to go after, so you wont be seeing me delete them from my list, but I will likely turn my second CIB team into a Phased Ion HAZARD team.
Last edited by CDR_Farsight on Jan 11 2018 05:57, edited 3 times in total.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Gather
Shas
Posts: 18

Re: Darkstrider and Phased Ion XV9

Post#2 » Jan 11 2018 04:52

Using Darkstrider that way is a cool idea but sadly can only buff T'au Sept Infantry and the XV9's do not have the Infantry keyword
Last edited by Gather on Jan 11 2018 04:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Ionus
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 66

Re: Darkstrider and Phased Ion XV9

Post#3 » Jan 11 2018 04:54

Unfortunately your idea won't work as Darkstrider's structural analyser only works on <INFANTRY>, and as such Battlesuits can't benefit from it.

I am also not sure where the 5+ rending effect comes from. Phased ion guns only work on a 6+. The only way to achieve 5+ rending is with a +1 wound roll, which nothing in the Tau index provides.

Your calculations seem off in that 100% of your hits are causing wounds, which is drastically inflating your numbers. I also think the full markerlight support hit number should be 18.66 rather than 16.33.

I wish I could put a silver lining on phased ion guns being good but...at the moment the burst cannons do their job better for cheaper.
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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
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Re: Darkstrider and Phased Ion XV9

Post#4 » Jan 11 2018 05:18

Ionus wrote:Unfortunately your idea won't work as Darkstrider's structural analyser only works on <INFANTRY>, and as such Battlesuits can't benefit from it.

I am also not sure where the 5+ rending effect comes from. Phased ion guns only work on a 6+. The only way to achieve 5+ rending is with a +1 wound roll, which nothing in the Tau index provides.

Your calculations seem off in that 100% of your hits are causing wounds, which is drastically inflating your numbers. I also think the full markerlight support hit number should be 18.66 rather than 16.33.

I wish I could put a silver lining on phased ion guns being good but...at the moment the burst cannons do their job better for cheaper.


You are correct haha. I had someone in my office while I was writing it so I messed a step....but alas it makes no difference since I also missed the infantry key word....dang our buffs suck compared to everyone else. I get hit with constant combos even worse than this on the regular. Back to my old boring Manta Strike list.

The 5+ still apllies though when you get the +1 to BS, since the rend happens on the hit instead of on the wound for the phased ion.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Phased Ion XV9 v Crisis CIB and Plasma

Post#5 » Jan 11 2018 06:11

Before somebody beats me to "Commanders do it better!" Yes....we all know that, but I'm trying not to be that guy that brings more than 4 commanders to a game. I strive for no more than 2.

2x Commander with 8 Plasma and ML Support (240)


MEQ in Cover
18 Shots -> 17.54 Hits -> 11.58 Wounds -> 9.65 Unsaved Wounds

MEQ in cover no ML support
18 Shots -> 15 Hits -> 9.9 Wounds -> 6.53 Unsaved wounds
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3253

Re: Phased Ion XV9 v Crisis CIB and Plasma

Post#6 » Jan 11 2018 06:42

Yeah, CIBs are actually uniquely poorly-suited to killing standard W1 MEQs. They perform just as well as Burst Cannons with ATS, so 2xBC+ATS will output 8 shots that wound on 3+ and have AP-1, while 3xCIB will output 9 shots with the same profile, but cost 26 points more. So yeah, standard CIBs aren't a good idea if you know you're going up against only W1 MEQs. However, ultimately, W1 MEQ units aren't the main threat in Space Marine armies- it's the vehicles, Terminators, flyers, Scouts, Hellblasters, Dreadnoughts, HQs, Guilliman, etc that are the real threats, against which CIBs are essentially peerless.

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Phased Ion XV9 v Crisis CIB and Plasma

Post#7 » Jan 11 2018 07:58

Arka0415 wrote:Yeah, CIBs are actually uniquely poorly-suited to killing standard W1 MEQs. They perform just as well as Burst Cannons with ATS, so 2xBC+ATS will output 8 shots that wound on 3+ and have AP-1, while 3xCIB will output 9 shots with the same profile, but cost 26 points more. So yeah, standard CIBs aren't a good idea if you know you're going up against only W1 MEQs. However, ultimately, W1 MEQ units aren't the main threat in Space Marine armies- it's the vehicles, Terminators, flyers, Scouts, Hellblasters, Dreadnoughts, HQs, Guilliman, etc that are the real threats, against which CIBs are essentially peerless.


All depends on your meta. I'm going to keep 1 or 2 CIB teams, 2 QFC, and Shadowsun which should be able to put a hurting on all of those things you listed. My bane is getting MEQ in cover off of objectives to keep them from scoring. Lots of progressive scoring in NOVA and the new CA battles. I'm only talking about picking one 280 pt unit dedicated to removing these pests so the rest of my army can focus on the Mortarians, Guillimans, Vehicles, etc...

It's an area where efficiency really matters because it's the difference between your opponent getting VP and not....which wins the game at the end of the day since I've never lost a game due to tabling in 8th.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Cgreeves
Shas
Posts: 53

Re: Phased Ion XV9 v Crisis CIB and Plasma

Post#8 » Jan 12 2018 02:52

What about vespid?

150 points and they get 20 shots at s5 -2

Without market supposer that would be around 3-4 unsaved wounds

With marker it would be better and 100 less points.

Also you have a unit with 14” movement.

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GND
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 147

Re: Darkstrider and Phased Ion XV9

Post#9 » Jan 12 2018 02:07

CDR_Farsight wrote:The 5+ still apllies though when you get the +1 to BS, since the rend happens on the hit instead of on the wound for the phased ion.


Sadly the wording is "on a hit roll of 6" not "6+". So markelights will not increase the chance for it to trigger. It will just trigger on natural 5s instead of 6s.

I wonder if it's a misprint or not. With the overall shoddy quality of the rushed out Imperial Armour Indexes one can never be sure.

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Phased Ion XV9 v Crisis CIB and Plasma

Post#10 » Jan 12 2018 02:41

Cgreeves wrote:What about vespid?

150 points and they get 20 shots at s5 -2

Without market supposer that would be around 3-4 unsaved wounds

With marker it would be better and 100 less points.

Also you have a unit with 14” movement.


They are squishy. The XV9 are 5 wounds each and get savior protocols.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Darkstrider and Phased Ion XV9

Post#11 » Jan 12 2018 02:41

GND wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:The 5+ still apllies though when you get the +1 to BS, since the rend happens on the hit instead of on the wound for the phased ion.


Sadly the wording is "on a hit roll of 6" not "6+". So markelights will not increase the chance for it to trigger. It will just trigger on natural 5s instead of 6s.

I wonder if it's a misprint or not. With the overall shoddy quality of the rushed out Imperial Armour Indexes one can never be sure.


Pretty sure it’s a misprint.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Gather
Shas
Posts: 18

Re: Darkstrider and Phased Ion XV9

Post#12 » Jan 12 2018 04:23

GND wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:The 5+ still apllies though when you get the +1 to BS, since the rend happens on the hit instead of on the wound for the phased ion.


Sadly the wording is "on a hit roll of 6" not "6+". So markelights will not increase the chance for it to trigger. It will just trigger on natural 5s instead of 6s.

I wonder if it's a misprint or not. With the overall shoddy quality of the rushed out Imperial Armour Indexes one can never be sure.


It's hard to say; I thought the same thing and looked up various examples of similar abilities with opposing examples (Necron's Tesla, and Kastellon Robot's Defence Grid ability in the codex) and the phrasing was a little different for both of them. I would be in the camp of it being 6+ but you could ask Forgeworld or your opponent and see what they think.

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Darkstrider and Phased Ion XV9

Post#13 » Jan 12 2018 05:47

Gather wrote:
GND wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:The 5+ still apllies though when you get the +1 to BS, since the rend happens on the hit instead of on the wound for the phased ion.


Sadly the wording is "on a hit roll of 6" not "6+". So markelights will not increase the chance for it to trigger. It will just trigger on natural 5s instead of 6s.

I wonder if it's a misprint or not. With the overall shoddy quality of the rushed out Imperial Armour Indexes one can never be sure.


It's hard to say; I thought the same thing and looked up various examples of similar abilities with opposing examples (Necron's Tesla, and Kastellon Robot's Defence Grid ability in the codex) and the phrasing was a little different for both of them. I would be in the camp of it being 6+ but you could ask Forgeworld or your opponent and see what they think.


Sent an email to FW. We shall see what they say. I have easy access to the GW rules folks, but FW not so much.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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