Options against Heavy Infantry

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 312

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#19 » Jan 25 2018 05:13

My personal solution: throw my (double )stormsurge at them. If the hardest thing to kill in my opponents list are them, I have 4 destroyer missles/each (6.22-7.77 average mortal wounds depending on anchors). That should eat through saves, and an addtional up to 30 strength 5 shots with ats support(each). :)

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
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Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#20 » Jan 25 2018 06:30

SniperTau wrote:On a squad of ten TEQ, A sunshark will do, supported by 5 markerlights, about 7 Mortal Wounds from the seekers and pulse bomb. then, the ion rifles on the drones will do (inside of 15") 6 hits, assuming overcharge 5 wounds, 1 failed save, 1 dead terminator. the missile pods will do 3 hits, two wounds, possibly one dead. @QuimRas its pretty good, killing about four.

The problem being that most people don't run 10-man squads of Terminators. It's not bad against 5-man squads, but the firepower does drop to 4.5 mortal wounds, one Ion wound, and 1.5 Missile wounds (probably).

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nic
Kroot'Ui
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 862

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#21 » Jan 26 2018 02:07

While they lack multi-wound damage output Vespid are still a solid pick against any elite infantry. The -2 AP is perfectly tuned to a 2+/4++ target and S5 is adequate for putting wounds onto Custodes, if not ideal.

Unlike Crisis suits Vespid can even have some luck kiting the Custodes jetbikes, at least until they run out of table to run away onto :D

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Kelandis
Shas'Saal
Posts: 54

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#22 » Jan 26 2018 07:47

Another option against elite infantry that's not necessarily popular atm is the Heavy Burst Cannon on the Riptide. With the Nova-Charge profile and markerlight support it will have 58% hit chance with 1 markerlight, and 78% hit chance with 5 markerlights for 12 shots at ap-2 per shot. Granted that requires a whole bunch of markerlights. However, if we're planning to utilize the riptide to work in conjunction with markerlights whenever possible, we can then scrap the target lock on it and replace it with an advanced targeting system. This boosts the normal HBC ap to -2, or -3 when over charged, and also gives ap to the missiles if you take them (which you should for this intended role). So, 12 shots at ap-3 and 8 at ap-1 is pretty nasty and more than likely capable of paying for the mortal wound you might take with the nova charging (take a stim injector!).

Still, probably not worth the points *shrug*.

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SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 224

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#23 » Jan 26 2018 07:52

Although now I think about it, one other model has the hbc. The fire support hammerhead. It has two, is cheaper, and has a better BS.

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Kelandis
Shas'Saal
Posts: 54

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#24 » Jan 26 2018 08:04

It's also FW and not everybody has FW or is in a local meta that allows FW. That and I think a lot of people have Riptides sitting around at the moment xD. Trying to give the poor thing something its good at!

EDIT: where can you even get the forge world hammerhead options? I'm new to the game, joined in November, and I checked the forge world site and didn't see them.

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 136

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#25 » Jan 26 2018 09:57

Kelandis wrote:It's also FW and not everybody has FW or is in a local meta that allows FW. That and I think a lot of people have Riptides sitting around at the moment xD. Trying to give the poor thing something its good at!

EDIT: where can you even get the forge world hammerhead options? I'm new to the game, joined in November, and I checked the forge world site and didn't see them.


The Forgeworld hammerhead turrets are out of production at the moment. They pop up on eBay fairly regularly.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

Lore
Shas
Posts: 46

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#26 » Jan 27 2018 03:15

Can we not kill everything else, steal an objective and hope the time runs out or they flunk a moral check? :P
They do still have to check moral if their friends run away don't they? :fear: Really must buy 8th ed rules sometime. :-?

Shas'o Shortsight
Shas
Posts: 28

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#27 » Jan 27 2018 04:05

Even when testing moral, they have at least MW8. You need to kill 3 models to allow for a single loose. And that's best case.
Killing everything else is something which may work against terminators and paladins. Against custodes, everything else is more custodes and landraider.

Problem with plasma rifles is that they aren't good against much else. Fusion is great against anything with high wounds. CIB is good against anything.
Opportunity cost is a thing to, unless the enemy has only one type of unit.

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nic
Kroot'Ui
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 862

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#28 » Jan 27 2018 06:51

The other option that seems to have been missed so far is Seeker Missiles.

A Skyray is actually good against Custodes - as always you really want to get 5 markerlight tokens on there to maximise their output but even a single Skyray can put the hurt on and with a few Seeker missiles from Piranha/Broadsides/Flyers added in you can take those units off the table very fast.

Custodes generally cost around or above 20 points per wound, anything which can bypass their good toughness and excellent save will really hurt them because of the low overall wound count they can put on the table.

Shas'o Shortsight
Shas
Posts: 28

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#29 » Jan 27 2018 11:59

A Skyray does 5.14 damage points with its seekers, plus 0.86 for it's side arms. That's 29.17 pts/dmg. Quite good compared to the other options. But the Skyray only does it once, afterwards he has only his side arms. Leaving him at 203 pts/dmg. Not good at all.
If you made an average about a whole game, he would be at 175 pts/dmg.

That's the usual problem with Skyray. One good (not exceptional) round and afterwards embarrassing.

Calculations for terminators/paladins. Custodes would suffer 1/6 less damage.


Actually, it would be better to take two piranhas with Fusionsblaster and 2x Seeker each.

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nic
Kroot'Ui
Kroot'Ui
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Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#30 » Jan 27 2018 01:18

Shas'o Shortsight wrote:A Skyray does 5.14 damage points with its seekers, plus 0.86 for it's side arms. That's 29.17 pts/dmg. Quite good compared to the other options. But the Skyray only does it once, afterwards he has only his side arms. Leaving him at 203 pts/dmg. Not good at all.
If you made an average about a whole game, he would be at 175 pts/dmg.

That's the usual problem with Skyray. One good (not exceptional) round and afterwards embarrassing.

Calculations for terminators/paladins. Custodes would suffer 1/6 less damage.


Actually, it would be better to take two piranhas with Fusionsblaster and 2x Seeker each.


If you do not declare Kauyon when launching your seeker missiles then you are probably doing it wrong. I agree that the Piranha have the edge over the whole game but they need the Kauyon even more than the Skyray. My point was (and is) that highly elite armies are where Seeker missiles begin to look like a good option.

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
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Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#31 » Jan 28 2018 12:25

nic wrote:If you do not declare Kauyon when launching your seeker missiles then you are probably doing it wrong. I agree that the Piranha have the edge over the whole game but they need the Kauyon even more than the Skyray. My point was (and is) that highly elite armies are where Seeker missiles begin to look like a good option.

Kauyon would require the Skyray to be immobile, and for a Commander to be nearby, and for that Commander not to have used Manta Strike, and for there to be enough units around to justify using Kauyon.

On the other hand, firing your Seeker Missiles at a target with 5+ Markerlights makes the Sky Ray BS2+ re-rolling ones, which is better than Kauyon, doesn't require a Commander, and is more tactically flexible.

Kauyon could be useful, but since there's a very high chance that you're firing at a Marker-lit target anyway, I don't think Kauyon is totally necessary here.

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nic
Kroot'Ui
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 862

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#32 » Jan 28 2018 04:41

Arka0415 wrote:
nic wrote:If you do not declare Kauyon when launching your seeker missiles then you are probably doing it wrong. I agree that the Piranha have the edge over the whole game but they need the Kauyon even more than the Skyray. My point was (and is) that highly elite armies are where Seeker missiles begin to look like a good option.

Kauyon would require the Skyray to be immobile, and for a Commander to be nearby, and for that Commander not to have used Manta Strike, and for there to be enough units around to justify using Kauyon.

On the other hand, firing your Seeker Missiles at a target with 5+ Markerlights makes the Sky Ray BS2+ re-rolling ones, which is better than Kauyon, doesn't require a Commander, and is more tactically flexible.

Kauyon could be useful, but since there's a very high chance that you're firing at a Marker-lit target anyway, I don't think Kauyon is totally necessary here.


Necessary - no, there are other ways to maximise the hits. It is certainly an option but we are deep-diving into list building philosophy and the issues of fully supporting the big one-turn Seeker missile strike with a balanced number of markerlight sources. Getting 5 marker hits on multiple targets is usually beyond what my list can reliably achieve, a Kauyon by contrast is always achievable with resources I already have in every list. A discussion of counters that only lets me reliably counter one enemy unit seems rather weak, similarly a need to add lots more markerlight sources into the list complicates the discussion.

In my experience the only models that can safely hold their Seeker missiles back to wait for markerlight support on a fresh target are models which can hide off the table - so Remoras really. Your mileage may vary.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 638

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#33 » Jan 28 2018 05:06

Extremely against the contrary, when I face things like Terminators(and eventually Custards) I use, and will use, a satisfyingly large number of Fire Warriors with a couple of combos (Cadre Fireblade/Pulse Accelerator Drone). I've wasted too many rolls trying to use good weapons to punch through heavy infantry, so now I just throw as many saves at them as I can, and save my special weapons for other things.

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Studioworks
Shas'Saal
Posts: 160

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#34 » Jan 28 2018 06:32

Arka0415 wrote:
nic wrote:If you do not declare Kauyon when launching your seeker missiles then you are probably doing it wrong. I agree that the Piranha have the edge over the whole game but they need the Kauyon even more than the Skyray. My point was (and is) that highly elite armies are where Seeker missiles begin to look like a good option.

...with 5+ Markerlights makes the Sky Ray BS2+ re-rolling ones...


I think Sky Ray hits on 3+, not 2+. However, let's hope for some stratagem to reload the missiles. Then it would be a cool option and actually a usable tank.

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3120

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#35 » Jan 28 2018 06:35

Studioworks wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
nic wrote:If you do not declare Kauyon when launching your seeker missiles then you are probably doing it wrong. I agree that the Piranha have the edge over the whole game but they need the Kauyon even more than the Skyray. My point was (and is) that highly elite armies are where Seeker missiles begin to look like a good option.

...with 5+ Markerlights makes the Sky Ray BS2+ re-rolling ones...


I think Sky Ray hits on 3+, not 2+. However, let's hope for some stratagem to reload the missiles. Then it would be a cool option and actually a usable tank.

With 5+ Markerlights it does! :biggrin:

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Studioworks
Shas'Saal
Posts: 160

Re: Options against Heavy Infantry

Post#36 » Jan 28 2018 06:49

Arka0415 wrote:
Studioworks wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:...with 5+ Markerlights makes the Sky Ray BS2+ re-rolling ones...


I think Sky Ray hits on 3+, not 2+. However, let's hope for some stratagem to reload the missiles. Then it would be a cool option and actually a usable tank.

With 5+ Markerlights it does! :biggrin:


Oh God. I just re-read the 2nd marker and saw the text between the brackets for the first time in thousands times reading :eek:

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