Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
War horse1
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Posts: 17

Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#1 » Feb 08 2018 04:14

Hello i had a friendly game with necrons player recently. I had not played necrons before. I found his ghost ark and annihilation barge almost impossible to kill. I had brought quad fusion commanders (usually 2) as my anti tank and i found them useless when compared with the quantum shielding and living metal abilities.

I have since been thinking on what loadout would be most appropriate.

Both have Living Metal ability which allows them to recover a wound lost earlier in the battle, at the start of there turn.

Both have Quantum Shielding ability: each time the suffer damage from an unsaved wound. Roll a d6, if the result is less than the damage inflicted by the attack the damage is ignored.

Commander; 4 cyclic ion blasters.

Commander; 3 cyclic ion blasters, ats.

Commander; 4 missile pods.

Commander; 3 missle pods, ats.

Commander; 4 plasma rifles.

Xv8 crisis teams (following the same loadouts as commanders.)

Ghost keel; cyclic ion raker, 2 burst cannons, ats, target lock.

Hammerhead; ion cannon, smart missile.

I know the next 2 loadouts are not very competitive but i put them there anyway.

Broadside; High yield missle pod, Smart missile, Ats

Riptide; heavy bust cannon, 2 smart missiles, ats, target lock.

Which of these is the best for cracking (what is in my opinion) one of the most durable tanks in the game?

What other loadouts am I missing?
Last edited by El'mo on Feb 10 2018 04:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Stats listing

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 567

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#2 » Feb 08 2018 04:27

Going to probably be the overcharged CIB or the missile pods since these will minimize the number of living metal saves while also chipping more than a single wound. I think the rapid fire plasma rifle may end up surprising us in this case but I haven't done the math yet. Give me a few minutes and I will!

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Yojimbob
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Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#3 » Feb 08 2018 05:06

loadout Commander PPD loadout Crisis PPD Keel PPD
4 CIB 5.761 25.689 3x3 CIB 7.778 37.029 2.927 54.996
3 CIB/ATS 5.401 25.550 3x2 CIB/ATS 6.481 39.806
4 MP 5.761 29.854 3x3 MP 7.778 43.971
3 MP/ATS 5.401 28.882 3x2 MP/ATS 6.481 45.360
4 rapid fire PR 3.889 30.857 3x3 rapid fire PR 5.250 42.857

Ionhead PPD Missileside PPD RIPtide PPD
3.543 59.833 5.358 37.700 3.954 78.913
3.111 68.143

It looked prettier in excel which clearly shows every commander loadout is our cheapest way to kill it (obviously) with missile sides JUST barely missing out to crisis suits overcharged CIB's. All in all, pretty much what you'd expect. Kill it with a commander. Also to note the two formats of ionhead was overcharged and not overcharged and the preference leaning towards NOT overcharging because the extra strength is of no benefit on that target but the higher chance to block all damage isn't worth it. Sorry for the terrible format. Anyone have ideas on how to fix it?

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K'Pokk
Shas'Saal
Posts: 105

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#4 » Feb 08 2018 06:12

Never played necrons but mass single-damage weapons would render the quantum shielding irrelevant. So that sounds like mass firewarriors and drones are called for? :eek:

Shots. Lots of shots :fear:

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Osocruel
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Posts: 33

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#5 » Feb 08 2018 06:17

I've go a friend that plays Necrons and he has a Ghost Ark and a Stalker. Both of which have Quantum Shielding and living metal.
However, I've got a Y'vahra! The shielding is tough but not invulnerable, just don't hit it with anything that has high damage. The Y'vahra puts out 3 damage on both overcharged weapons so the chance of him saving those shots is only about 33%, he would need to roll 1's or 2's to save.
Remember he has to roll lower than the damage not equal.

War horse1
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#6 » Feb 08 2018 06:29

Yojimbob wrote:loadout Commander PPD loadout Crisis PPD Keel PPD
4 CIB 5.761 25.689 3x3 CIB 7.778 37.029 2.927 54.996
3 CIB/ATS 5.401 25.550 3x2 CIB/ATS 6.481 39.806
4 MP 5.761 29.854 3x3 MP 7.778 43.971
3 MP/ATS 5.401 28.882 3x2 MP/ATS 6.481 45.360
4 rapid fire PR 3.889 30.857 3x3 rapid fire PR 5.250 42.857

Ionhead PPD Missileside PPD RIPtide PPD
3.543 59.833 5.358 37.700 3.954 78.913
3.111 68.143

It looked prettier in excel which clearly shows every commander loadout is our cheapest way to kill it (obviously) with missile sides JUST barely missing out to crisis suits overcharged CIB's. All in all, pretty much what you'd expect. Kill it with a commander. Also to note the two formats of ionhead was overcharged and not overcharged and the preference leaning towards NOT overcharging because the extra strength is of no benefit on that target but the higher chance to block all damage isn't worth it. Sorry for the terrible format. Anyone have ideas on how to fix it?


This might sound stupid but i cant understand could youplease re write it for me thankyou a lot though.

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Osocruel
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#7 » Feb 08 2018 08:46

Yojimbob wrote:Kill it with a commander.


I just had a look at some numbers and believe it would take about 3 turns to kill with this. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only quite new to using MathHammer, but against a Ghost Ark you're only looking at an average of 3 unsaved wounds. With D3 damage you're now at 6 damage (2 damage each), even if Quantum Shielding failed, at the beginning of his turn he would be back at 5 wounds with 9 to go.

At 148 points each you could use 3 4xCIB Commanders to kill it but thats 444pts shooting at 1 target. Seems like a lot of points to take out 1 Ghost Ark (170pts).

Help me out if gone wrong somewhere.

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RoboBonobo
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Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#8 » Feb 09 2018 03:33

I know the Skyray doesn't get a lot of love but consider if you will:
With the way markerlights stack and Seeker Missles deliver mortal wounds (bypassing QS), it seems like it's worth considering.

Annihilation Barges don't degrade (that I could find) so at 1 wound it is just as effective as full health. As above in the mathhammer breakdown Yojimbob posted it would seem CIB gets the best points to wounds ratio. A pile of MLs on the barge teamed with CIB surprise party commander (also benefiting from the lights) should do enough that the Skyray can knock it out of the sky for good.

It's not as cheesey as pouring a full supreme command detachment worth if commanders onto 1 tank or hoping to survive the return fire long enough to finish next turn. It frees up your other commanders to drop in elsewhere. You're left with a durable (if neutered) flying tank to skirt around to objectives, kamikaze units that needed to be tied up in combat, or just add some overpriced BC/SMS and ML support as needed, and you still have what ever you used to deliver the marker lights in the first place to continue to aggravate the unfeeling machines.

So you spend 1 round shooting say a full pathfinder team, dropping in 1 commander, and unloading a Skyray to smoke a barge. It's a heavy points sink but not nearly as bad as the resource sink using 2/3 commanders to kill it would be when the other(s) can be used/dropped on something else. BONUS: when it's downed you aren't left with a group of commanders bunched up in the open.

As for the Ark... ignore it? It has to be chewed through 3 levels of degrading stats, using a lot of shooting, to stop what is basically a +1 shot BC with ATS until it gets within 12" of something. Yes that rapid fire is ugly inside half range, but there are always bigger (living metal) fish to fry.

Consider the Skyray's mortal wounds delivery, ignore the Ark and focus those efforts on more important targets (like Crypteks) and tear the army apart before a 10 warrior transport/healing hub can be more than an inconvenience. :smile:

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Yojimbob
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Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#9 » Feb 09 2018 08:30

Osocruel wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:Kill it with a commander.


I just had a look at some numbers and believe it would take about 3 turns to kill with this. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only quite new to using MathHammer, but against a Ghost Ark you're only looking at an average of 3 unsaved wounds. With D3 damage you're now at 6 damage (2 damage each), even if Quantum Shielding failed, at the beginning of his turn he would be back at 5 wounds with 9 to go.

At 148 points each you could use 3 4xCIB Commanders to kill it but thats 444pts shooting at 1 target. Seems like a lot of points to take out 1 Ghost Ark (170pts).

Help me out if gone wrong somewhere.


Forgot to mention my math is all with RR1's to boot because obviously if you want it dead you'll have at least a single ML or equivalent on it. Yes, it would require by the math to have 3 commanders or 3 turns to kill one. More than likely you'll be supporting commanders with other shots from other sources and it would require 10.286 shots per wound on it from bs4+ 5/0/1 shots with RR1's so really you'd need 2 commanders with CIB's and about 30 shots or 15 RF firewarriors or 7.5 gun drones. Not too much really but the point is if you want it dead, yes, you'll need to invest in a disproportionate amount of points to make it go away. If it DIDN'T have quantum shielding it would take 1.54 QFC's which is still 272 points (shield drones included in QFC's because you'll never not take them). Big targets and big threats absorb more points worth of shooting in 8th. Just the way it is.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#10 » Feb 09 2018 08:34

I get the impression that Necrons will get some love in their codex but this living metal rule that completely negates all damage if they roll under the amount of damage taken will be nerfed to something like a flat reduces damage from multi damage sources in half (rounding up) or by one so I don't think we'll need to trouble ourselves with this after about April.

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 137

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#11 » Feb 09 2018 09:13

Yojimbob wrote:I get the impression that Necrons will get some love in their codex but this living metal rule that completely negates all damage if they roll under the amount of damage taken will be nerfed to something like a flat reduces damage from multi damage sources in half (rounding up) or by one so I don't think we'll need to trouble ourselves with this after about April.

I would bet it gets turned into a 5+ or 6+ feel no pain.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

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blodgram
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Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#12 » Feb 09 2018 11:25

I play against necrons mostly he has a doomsaday ark, annihilation barge, 2 triarch stalkers and 2 doom scythes. So lots of quantum shielding. I take Ion mostly to cut them down, a pair of sun shark bombers in particular have done the most for me (save for that one time longstrike stripped 9 wounds in 1 shot off of a doom scythe).

I have also had moderate success with the ghostkeel w/ion raker, burst, ats, and EWO. Anything with -1 to hit is ideal to be taking those tesla shots.

Commander w/ 3x CIB and ats is reliable but I have never been able to just down one in one turn without further firepower.

Riptide with IA is hilarious as he can flop or down them in 1 volley but is not point efficient (this option is a lot more appealing when the player also has an obelisk and a monolith in there collection).

Basic markerlight support has been key in there destruction, 5 hits are almost essential. Pretty much every time what I brought leaves the tank at a few wounds so saving small arms fire to strip those last few wounds is recommended (big guns first).

This is all just my experience playing against my brother necrons and I have to admit I'm a veteran where he is quite fresh to the game.

Of course the Y'vahra just eats them and is the best for the job but I have to leave him on the shelf for the sake of fairness most of the time.

comm_nagrom
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#13 » Feb 09 2018 11:15

Wow I'm kinda glad necrons are absent from my local meta, both of those rules sound scary as hell! As for how to deal 14+ wounds in as many attacks as possible why not gun drones? A 6-man gun drone squads put out, what 24 shots? Drop a 3 man crisis team with 3 CIB and 2 gun drones each with a 3 CIB+DC commander with 2 gun drones of his own, light up the ark and watch it melt from the weight of shots (48 s7 ap-1 d1 shots and 32 s5 ap0 d1 shots total I believe)

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Yojimbob
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Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#14 » Feb 12 2018 08:38

comm_nagrom wrote:Wow I'm kinda glad necrons are absent from my local meta, both of those rules sound scary as hell! As for how to deal 14+ wounds in as many attacks as possible why not gun drones? A 6-man gun drone squads put out, what 24 shots? Drop a 3 man crisis team with 3 CIB and 2 gun drones each with a 3 CIB+DC commander with 2 gun drones of his own, light up the ark and watch it melt from the weight of shots (48 s7 ap-1 d1 shots and 32 s5 ap0 d1 shots total I believe)


Because killing a Doomsday Ark or Ghost Ark requires 42 Gun drones at BS4+, so needing either 5 ML or a DC, to bring it down in a single volley or 336 points worth of drones if you like it in that format. Still takes multiple squads of anything we have to throw at it to bring it down. It's not an easy thing to bring down 14 wounds when it ignores all the big shots.

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Lostroninsoul
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Posts: 316

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#15 » Feb 12 2018 11:34

TLDR: Based on the wording of that ability that's giving you trouble, mortal wounds should bypass it. Broadsides and the hammer head can take seeker missles But you would want some markerlights. Railgun +long strike can help the with mortal wound chance if you change the Hammerhead loadout.

I also think broadsides have a railgun to have access to but I'm not sure cuz I don't own the model.

Nitrogue
Shas
Posts: 93

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#16 » Feb 12 2018 11:56

Lostroninsoul wrote:TLDR: Based on the wording of that ability that's giving you trouble, mortal wounds should bypass it. Broadsides and the hammer head can take seeker missles But you would want some markerlights. Railgun +long strike can help the with mortal wound chance if you change the Hammerhead loadout.

I also think broadsides have a railgun to have access to but I'm not sure cuz I don't own the model.

I don't think mortal wounds would help here. Rules state any unsaved wounds, as mortals can not be saved against they would automatically fit in this category.

Basically need a weapon that fires a lot of low damage shots, rather than a OHKO super weapon.

comm_nagrom
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#17 » Feb 12 2018 01:35

Nitrogue wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:TLDR: Based on the wording of that ability that's giving you trouble, mortal wounds should bypass it. Broadsides and the hammer head can take seeker missles But you would want some markerlights. Railgun +long strike can help the with mortal wound chance if you change the Hammerhead loadout.

I also think broadsides have a railgun to have access to but I'm not sure cuz I don't own the model.

I don't think mortal wounds would help here. Rules state any unsaved wounds, as mortals can not be saved against they would automatically fit in this category.

Basically need a weapon that fires a lot of low damage shots, rather than a OHKO super weapon.


Actually since mortal wounds are single point damage wounds they would bypass it, since they would have to roll under the damage and thus they can't roll less than one no?

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Yojimbob
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Posts: 567

Re: Optimal loadout against quantum shielding.

Post#18 » Feb 12 2018 01:52

comm_nagrom wrote:
Nitrogue wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:TLDR: Based on the wording of that ability that's giving you trouble, mortal wounds should bypass it. Broadsides and the hammer head can take seeker missles But you would want some markerlights. Railgun +long strike can help the with mortal wound chance if you change the Hammerhead loadout.

I also think broadsides have a railgun to have access to but I'm not sure cuz I don't own the model.

I don't think mortal wounds would help here. Rules state any unsaved wounds, as mortals can not be saved against they would automatically fit in this category.

Basically need a weapon that fires a lot of low damage shots, rather than a OHKO super weapon.


Actually since mortal wounds are single point damage wounds they would bypass it, since they would have to roll under the damage and thus they can't roll less than one no?


Yes, they would bypass it. Not sure about destroyer missiles since multiple mortal wounds behave kind of oddly. It's not d3 damage but d3 individual mortal wounds I believe. Not 100% on this but maybe someone can point us in the right direction with how receiving multiple mortal wounds works.

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