Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Zanotam
Shas
Posts: 13

Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#1 » Feb 10 2018 06:29

So, if my ebay adventures go well I will soon have the pieces to construct 3 broadsides.... But I have gotten in a grand total of one game since 3rd edition (in which my ally was stomped in our 2v2 and I discovered I had massively underestimated the opposing space wolf dreadnoughts which prevented me from even getting to the enemy AM's tanks which was my original plan) and yet, once I can finally get my hands on kroot, I'm potentially looking at 3k or more points total of T'au (after I finish a few conversions including ones planned based upon the auction I'm going for) with
*~20 pathfinders (who will be deployed in 4 groups of 5 with 3 rifles each and at least 4 drones each if I win the auction),
* an Etheral,
* Soon to be a fireblade or darkstrider (I can probably convert 1 of both)
* 4 assorted commanders plus farsight (of which only 2 are finished building/converting so far),
*20ish fire warriors (posisibly 22 with 3 of the remaining being converted to other things for 12 regular, 10 breachers),
*a Ghost Keel,
* HOpefully 3 Broadsides (I have one and I'm trying ebay to get enough for 2 more)
* a Devilfish (going to try to make magnets so I can convert it back and forth with a hammerhead)
* A hammerhead (see above, but it's currently built with a railgun : /)
* An Yvahra (in the mail from forge world! SOOO EXCITED!)
* 3 oldschool stealthsuits (from waaay back in the day, so I treat them as all having burst cannons or whatever)
* Anywhere from 10 to 12 to 16 to 24 kroot Carnivores possibly with a shaper (depending upon how auctions go and what I can buy off a friend and if failing that I'll have to check stores that aren't my LGS)


So, assuming I run the commanders as one Coldstar, One QFC, One tri Cyclic, one XV84 w/2xmissile, but if I win the auction it looks like I"ll have the bits to convert a second coldstar in which case I"m not sure how I would choose between coldstar, qfc, and tricyclic for my potentially single (i may be able to use magnets to make them interchangeable though). So I guess my first question is what I should do with the 3 potential commanders (xv84, QFC, tri cyclic was my tentative plan) that haven't actually been finished/built (and thus have options on what I can convert them to poooosssibly involving some light magnet shenanigans) ?


My second question is then what I should do with the Broadsides? However, I may only have the supplies to may 1 or 2 missilesides (I"m not entirely sure how many missiles I have although i would haev at least enough for 1 going full missiles and probably 2 going full missiles but it depends upon what my remaining commander and xv8 sprues have on them to a certain extent plus some of the smaller stuff I can't quite tell what it is in the ebay bidding I'm doing). And my plan would be to generally have them sit back, possibly with a hammerhead although generally I don't think that would be affordable, and Kauyon them at least once with their potential protection involving a decent number of ablative wounds from drones, generally at least a few fire warriors and kroot carnivores, at least one but oftentimes 2 and sometimes up to 4 pathfinder teams (which provide some of the ablative wounds), and possibly dropped in Commanders and probably starting with a Ghost Keel and/or Y'vahra nearby (who may or may not stay nearby to help deal with threats). Like, an example list of what I'm thinking is:


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [80 PL, 1500pts] ++

+ Heavy Support +

XV88 Broadside Battlesuits [22 PL, 423pts]: 4x MV8 Missile Drone
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x Plasma rifle, Heavy rail rifle, Shield generator
. Broadside Shas'vre: 2x Plasma rifle, Drone controller, Heavy rail rifle

+ HQ +

Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit [8 PL, 150pts]: High-output burst cannon, Missile pod, 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Warlord

+ Elites +

XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit [10 PL, 181pts]: 2x Burst cannon, Advanced targeting system, Cyclic ion raker, 2x MV5 Stealth Drone, Target lock

+ Fast Attack +

Pathfinder Team [5 PL, 88pts]: MB3 Recon Drone, 2x MV1 Gun Drone, MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone
. Pathfinder: Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle: 3x Ion rifle

Pathfinder Team [5 PL, 88pts]: MB3 Recon Drone, MV33 Grav-inhibitor Drone, 2x MV4 Shield Drone
. Pathfinder: Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle: 3x Ion rifle

XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit [22 PL, 462pts]: 2x MV84 Shielded Missile Drone, Stimulant injector, Target lock

+ Troops +

Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Kroot

Strike Team [5 PL, 48pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

++ Total: [80 PL, 1500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


At 1750 points I might actually just modify the list by taking more drones and a 3rd broadside ora 2nd commander, I'm not entirely sure to be honest. This list probalby isn't optimal with the firewarriors being dropped for more drones being the correct decision, but it has 4 markerlight shots at up to two different targets generally speaking with the y'vahra and Coldstar forming sort of the hammer while the rest form the anvil with the GhostKeel able to function as either one as somewhere betwen anti-tank and anti-infantry (I would say it does well against both but might struggle against elite infantry with the ATS and TL allowing it to either stay mobile with the y'vahra and coldstar or to simply let it potentially get some good shooting into a charge-disengage to tie-up units trying to reach the backline without necessarily reducing the raw number of shots hitting the opponent).


But, I'm interested in plenty of lists involving broadsides and explanations for why certain builds are taken on broadsides with the ideal being that nothing uses more than 2missilesides (and, in fact, in squads of 3 I'm thinking making the shas'ui one type and the shas'vre the other might actually work but that could be my inner new person talking).
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Commander of Kraph'to

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Ifrit
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 181

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#2 » Feb 10 2018 09:52

As of right now a lot of our units in weird spots until our Codex drops.
Broadsides as HYMP are still good just not worth their points.
Coldstars are good as Assasins (there’s a thread somewhere on here about running 2 of them so I’d say build 2 of them and you can “proxy” the other one as a normal commander?) along with objective grabbing for Maelstrom missions or Line Breaker.
Breachers are fun in a Dfish (but only 1-2 units with Darkstrider or possible bubble wrapping)
Stealthsuits are normally used as harassers and Homing Beacon carriers (so maybe look at picking up some more of money allows)
Kroot don’t have too much experience with aside from hearing that they are pretty good cheap bubble wrap.
XV8s are still really good as our Jack of All trades. A little on the expensive points wise...
Riptides at the moment aren’t worth their points but that could change with the Codex.
Get drones. Lots and lots of drones. The savior protocols are reDONKulous (basically extra wounds for your important suits and they pair well with a Fireblade)
Stormsurges... pick one up if funds allow (they are pretty cool a lot of points but the Area Denial they offer is really good. Protect with bubble wrap and some drones)
Unfortunately this is all the advice I have for you :sad:

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K'Pokk
Shas'Saal
Posts: 105

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#3 » Feb 11 2018 07:03

"HYMP" ??

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nic
Kroot'Ui
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 862

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#4 » Feb 11 2018 08:19

K'Pokk wrote:"HYMP" ??


High Yield Missile Pod. Paired with the Smart Missile System you have the classic 'missileside' that was by far the most common build of Broadside through 6th and 7th editions.

In 8th edition this build is good - it has a lot of shots - but way too expensive. I would expect some sort of fix for this in the codex in a few weeks.

The only real advice for building these models now is to either use magnets or wait a few weeks.

Wes
Shas
Posts: 55

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#5 » Feb 11 2018 08:32

K'Pokk wrote:"HYMP" ??


High Yield Missile Pods. The Broadside can take either two HYMP or a Heavy Rail Rifle as its primary weapon. HYMP are still effective but a loaded-out Broadside in general is a bit overcosted. The HRR isn't as reliable/efficient at the moment. The HYMP setup can work well as anti-infantry and can target tanks or monsters if needed.

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T0nkaTruckDriver
Shas'O
Shas'O
Posts: 1700

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#6 » Feb 11 2018 03:22

I've also been working on ways to incorporate HRR Broadsides into my lists. I've got a pair of old models that I love and really enjoy putting them on the table. That said, they're definitely overcosted as others have pointed out. That doesn't mean they're bad, just hard-pressed to kill their points cost in a game.

They're really hard to uproot if in cover, but if you deploy them in cover their LoS can occasionally be blocked to the juiciest of targets. So running a Target Lock to allow them to keep their accuracy while jockying for line of sight is valuable. If you play on wide open tables, a Shield Generator is probably the better support system. The Drone Controller is a bit of a waste as it really only benefits Gun Drones ... and Shield Drones are really what you want hanging nearby. Speaking of Shield Drones, 4 seem to be just barely enough. Finding points (and/or a Force Org slot) to bring a 5th isn't a bad idea. A lot of the discussion around Broadsides being overpriced is focused on their damage output ... and I think a big part of their cost is in accounting for just how durable they are. T5 with a 2+ save (1+ in cover), 6 wounds, and with a compliment of Shield Drones nearby is just stupidly hard to kill. Just keep them out of assault!

I run mine with SMS - 8 S5 shots per model at 30" range (ignoring LoS and cover) is nothing to sneeze at; they're useful for contributing to a nearby infantry skirmish while their main guns are focused downrange at enemy armor.

A Firesight Marksman is also a useful addition to the firebase. He's untargetable as a Character and has a BS 3+ Markerlight he can use to hopefully give a welcome accuracy bump to the Broadsides.

Zanotam
Shas
Posts: 13

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#7 » Feb 12 2018 07:17

Ifrit wrote:As of right now a lot of our units in weird spots until our Codex drops.
Broadsides as HYMP are still good just not worth their points.
Coldstars are good as Assasins (there’s a thread somewhere on here about running 2 of them so I’d say build 2 of them and you can “proxy” the other one as a normal commander?) along with objective grabbing for Maelstrom missions or Line Breaker.
Breachers are fun in a Dfish (but only 1-2 units with Darkstrider or possible bubble wrapping)
Stealthsuits are normally used as harassers and Homing Beacon carriers (so maybe look at picking up some more of money allows)
Kroot don’t have too much experience with aside from hearing that they are pretty good cheap bubble wrap.
XV8s are still really good as our Jack of All trades. A little on the expensive points wise...
Riptides at the moment aren’t worth their points but that could change with the Codex.
Get drones. Lots and lots of drones. The savior protocols are reDONKulous (basically extra wounds for your important suits and they pair well with a Fireblade)
Stormsurges... pick one up if funds allow (they are pretty cool a lot of points but the Area Denial they offer is really good. Protect with bubble wrap and some drones)
Unfortunately this is all the advice I have for you :sad:



So I should probably run HYMP, but do I run those with plasma rifle or smart missile systems then? And, assuming I'm already taking them, the special missile drones are a good pickup, right?

The Drone Controller is a bit of a waste as it really only benefits Gun Drones ... and Shield Drones are really what you want hanging nearby. Speaking of Shield Drones, 4 seem to be just barely enough. Finding points (and/or a Force Org slot) to bring a 5th isn't a bad idea. A lot of the discussion around Broadsides being overpriced is focused on their damage output ... and I think a big part of their cost is in accounting for just how durable they are. T5 with a 2+ save (1+ in cover), 6 wounds, and with a compliment of Shield Drones nearby is just stupidly hard to kill. Just keep them out of assault!


A big part of what I'm thinking actually is, as I tried to show in the example list, of basically a firing line with broadsides in the back so that there's some bubblewrap and drones around them from a variety of sources allowing them to enhance gun drones (and their own missile drones) while also allowing them to be nigh indestructible - a swam of potentially 5-10 drones per braodside is a LOT of bubblewrap and with maybe a single pathfinder unit and kroot unit potentially nearby (or even just a Ghostkeel!) they can be very hard to kill through pure firepower due to toughness, wounds, and save plus relative protection from assaults and the like. Like, I get they're a little high points wise.

I've also been working on ways to incorporate HRR Broadsides into my lists. [...] I run mine with SMS


RElated to this - how do you choose targets for them and do you ever use them mixed with HYMP? I'm thinking ina unit of 3 mixing is worthwhile to add a bit more tank killing power or close-in defenses (HYMP shots being great protection!), but I'm actually struggling the most I woudl say with when to choose which secondaries. Rapidfire 1 isn't a ton of shots, but that means 4 ap-3 overwatch shots and I'km under the impression that units should be optimized to kill one type of thing so I'm wondering if Plasmarifles don't make more sense with HRR since you'd then be shooting 4-6 high ap shots at various enemies depending upon distance rather than splitting between raw amount of firepower and quality of firepower. Which brings me to my last concern: is quality really able to make up for quantity in the current edition? I feel like you have to take 2xHRR broadsides to really have a good chance of killing multiple tanks (since 4 shots per turn at bs4 will average around 6 damage so 2 average turns or 1 moderatley lucky turn will more or less kill an 'average T8,' sv3, w12 tank). Which is I guess nice, but I haven't looked at the statistics of it very heavily since there are 4 bs, 0-4 wound, and 0-4 damage rolls potentially making my quick math not the best.

EDIT: Related to this.... I guess my question is somewhat moot now as I just ended up ordering 2 premade with one of each primary and both secondary weapon systems being missiles, but I'm still kinda interested in discussing secondaries. LIke, for primaries I can see the clear uses of both and I have to admit raw volume of fire power seems to be a big deal this edition so generally I'd run 2 missilesides and 1 railgunside (if I run 3, otherwise just 2xmissileside), but I"m not sure if the secondaries should be picked for synergy and what synergy actually means in this case.... for Railguns it seems like the gun option has more synergy as it allows for multiple shots with decent apen, but with missiles am I right in thinking that the raw firepower offered by even more missiles is the correct synergy option? So are the non-missile options just too weak to be worth it (although the chance to kill 3-5 tanks a game with just 2 of them and a few drones sounds.... nice....) even when taking the railgun or do people just like the missile range for broadsides when running a railgun and then the synergy when running HYMP?
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Commander of Kraph'to

User avatar
Ifrit
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 181

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#8 » Feb 12 2018 11:26

I think it depends on what army you’ll be facing. If it’s something that will get in your face quick probably Plasma, but if they are foot slogging, or out of LoS then SMS would be better. So it would be very situational.
Honestly the Secondaries are easy to magnetize it’s the main weapon that’s hard.
There was a tutorial where someone took the arms for the HRR cut the barrel off and glued on the rocket hand. Looks awesome.
Then another person further developed it by making it magnetic to swap between the HRR and the HYMP... Probably in the Tutorial section somewhere.

Zanotam
Shas
Posts: 13

Re: Deciding on layouts for Broadside Unit (and choosing commanders)

Post#9 » Feb 12 2018 11:37

Oh, I was going to magnetize just one of the new models so I assumed it wouldn't be too hard (I figure I'll just stick with missile secondaries on my two others since I got them cheap on ebay...), but I'll definitely check those out. And I'll make sure to keep my opponent in mind for secondaries when I can and when I can't I'll probably go for synergy if possible.
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