Necrons

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
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Re: Necrons

Post#41 » Feb 01 2015 06:44

Myrdin wrote:The wraiths are literally Disgusting cheesemode right now. +1 extra T, still keeping theri 3++ and now in formation they get 4++ FNP (its Reanimation but thats pretty much a FNP roll...), all that for like what... +5 cost ?
Zelnik wrote:Whoh. Wait.

Wraiths with FNP!?

What the hell is this??
There is a formation in the book, Canoptek Harvest, that consists of at least one Spyder, some Scarabs and some Wraiths. It allows the Spyder(s) to pick one of three special rules every turn, and it confers this special rule onto itself and any unit from the formation that is within 12" of the Spyder. One of these is Reanimation Protocols.

When this formation is taken as a part of the new Decurion Detachment—basically an FOC that exchanges individual units for small, cheap formations—the Command Benefit gives all models in the detachment a +1 bonus to RAP in addition to any bonuses their formations already provide. Hence, a 4+ RAP.



Edit: Clarification.
  • Decurion Detachment: Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. Models in this Detachment with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls.
  • Canoptek Harvest Formation: Choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule


It's a shame that RAP works against Instant Death, the proliferation of T5 multi-wound models was something I suspected would help put Railheads back onto the table as reliable snipers.

Zelnik wrote:...Quantum Shielding is down on a glance isn't it...
Sadly, no. Quantum Shielding is still active "until it suffers a penetrating hit".

Kael'yn wrote:
ARC'Thunder wrote:Personally, I'm having a hard time understanding the price of Destroyers compared to our XV8s with Stims. How a BS4, T5, RAP (FnP+), PE model with a gauss cannon is only a few points more expensive than our BS3, T4, FnP, unarmed model is beyond me.

They can only have 2 weapon options compared to multi-tool (and multi-weapons) crisis ?
Comparing prices between dex is not easy. It's points usefulness, slot competition, ... that need to be compared.
But I agree that they seems to good for their points (T5 crisis in the future with BS4 option please, else how to explain the BS3 to BS5 gap for commanders...)
Normally I would defend our incredible versatility in loadouts, but even adding a single flamer would push us over the edge. And the versatility of the Gauss Cannon (and sheer power of a Heavy Gauss Cannon) cannot be denied; auto-wounding and glancing on 6s, a respectable S and AP, with two shots at 24". There is little that gun can't do, even if it cannot specialize in any one thing the way our suit-mounted weapons do.

Also, I too miss the nice scaling we lost with Shas'els and Targeting Arrays. And I still feel that XV88's should be T5 considering the size of the model and, if I'm not mistaken, the old fluff had their armor as iridium-based which would be a nice justification for increased toughness.

Zelnik wrote:I am pretty sure that everyone looks at our elites and wonders why in the world we only have bs3 on them when no other army but orks have such DREADFUL shooting abilities.
The only real justification for our lack of access to BS4 is, what I believe to be, a fairly elegant solution to promote markerlight expenditure and a sense of balance.

Fluff wise, shas should all be BS4 minimum considering they are subjected to the same life-long training expected of any Imperial soldier attending the Schola Progenium with the supplies and equipment to rival Scions ;) .
Last edited by ARC'Thunder on Feb 01 2015 09:54, edited 1 time in total.

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RevRanDoM
Por'O
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Re: Necrons

Post#42 » Feb 01 2015 07:35

There is a formation that you can take for wraiths that gives them reanimation protocols. I didn't realize it got boosted up to 4++, though.

Edit: spyder scarab and wraith = canoptek harvest. Starts out at 5++ but can be boosted to 4++.

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Zelnik
Shas
Posts: 41

Re: Necrons

Post#43 » Feb 01 2015 09:10

:eek:

:::(

Well, in that case... Guess it's time to just paint my minis and hope that we will get formations at some time, beyond the Amazing, but limited Firebase Support Cadre.

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Zelnik
Shas
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Re: Necrons

Post#44 » Feb 01 2015 09:52

Some good news, at least against the catacomb command barge.

Blast weapons and templates are -always- performed against the chariot (as by the rules) and precision strikes are chosen by the attacker.

Remember, independant characters have the precision strike special rule!

Also, it makes the R'varna the perfect killer of these chariots with a little markerlight support (especially to negate his jink, and to assure 100% accuracy) Also, the chariot doesn't have reanimation protocols and there are NO special rules that let it come back. Hit the chariot, kill the chariot, the lord dies without a single RAP roll.

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ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
Posts: 850

Re: Necrons

Post#45 » Feb 01 2015 10:04

Zelnik wrote:Remember, independant characters have the precision strike special rule!
This is incorrect. In 7th edition, characters no longer have precision shots or precision strikes by default—they certainly aren't listed as benefits on BRB pages 100 (Characters) or 166 (Independent Characters). Unless one or both of them are conferred as USRs (aptly named Precision Shot or Precision Strike) through wargear or a unit entry, the model does not have them.

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Zelnik
Shas
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Re: Necrons

Post#46 » Feb 01 2015 10:16

Aw bugger.

Still. We have options.

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Myrdin
Shas
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Re: Necrons

Post#47 » Feb 02 2015 12:48

Zelnik wrote:Well, in that case... Guess it's time to just paint my minis and hope that we will get formations at some time, beyond the Amazing, but limited Firebase Support Cadre.


Exactly

I don't understand what the hell happened at GW. At first the new books didnt have any formations, at all. Then suddenly Bam, every single new dex since ... DE ? had some kind of uber nonsensical formation (looking at you GK, looking at you). Now the Crons pushed that even further...
I mean in all fairness GW should throw in some "free to download rules" like they did for the new NID models, where we would be eligible to some new formations that could actually do something for us. The Firebase is nice but extremely limited in use, and goes only for Broadsides.... Crisis suits, Piranha-Stealth teams, Fire Warriors, Kroot-Vespid, etc.. So many option for awesome formations just waiting to be explored...

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Keeper
Shas
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Re: Necrons

Post#48 » Feb 02 2015 02:30

We're definitely going to face a lot of wraiths in the near future due to the massive boost they received :neutral: However, massed pulse fire should solve the problem quite well :biggrin:

I agree that there are numerous possibilities for Tau Formations but I doubt that we're going to get any new ones for a while :sad:

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ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
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Re: Necrons

Post#49 » Feb 02 2015 05:07

I was just reading the comments of a review on the new Necron codex, and this one jumped out at me:
Fire Warriors-the most effiecent small-arms-fire unit in the game with their S5 guns will need 48 shots in order to kill a SINGLE wraith in the decurion.
That's not reasonable. that's over the price of the entire formation sank into killing a single member of the wraiths themselves, not counting the spider (T6 W4 3+ 4++) that requires 144 more shots.
So, a wing of 6 wraiths will take 432 pulse fire shots to kill, not even counting the scarabs as if they are not even there.
To kill it over a game, you'll need 72 shots per turn on average. that is nowhere NEAR reasonable.
I presume, the commenter is specifically referencing Wraiths that are taken as a Canoptek Harvest formation within a Decurion Detachment—thereby benefitting from a 4+ RAP in addition to their normal 3++.

Are any of our mathematicians or statisticians available to confirm these numbers? This seems to eliminate the idea that small arms fire is a reasonable method for wearing down the Necrons. What sort of other options do we really have? We have plenty of higher strength weapons, but we're no longer able to spam S10 to force IDs against them (the new RAP does take a -1 penalty when making a save against ID wounds as well) and can the other strengths be taken in enough numbers to make it worth it?

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Necrons

Post#50 » Feb 02 2015 05:32

ARC'Thunder wrote:I was just reading the comments of a review on the new Necron codex, and this one jumped out at me:
Fire Warriors-the most effiecent small-arms-fire unit in the game with their S5 guns will need 48 shots in order to kill a SINGLE wraith in the decurion.
That's not reasonable. that's over the price of the entire formation sank into killing a single member of the wraiths themselves, not counting the spider (T6 W4 3+ 4++) that requires 144 more shots.
So, a wing of 6 wraiths will take 432 pulse fire shots to kill, not even counting the scarabs as if they are not even there.
To kill it over a game, you'll need 72 shots per turn on average. that is nowhere NEAR reasonable.
I presume, the commenter is specifically referencing Wraiths that are taken as a Canoptek Harvest formation within a Decurion Detachment—thereby benefitting from a 4+ RAP in addition to their normal 3++.

Are any of our mathematicians or statisticians available to confirm these numbers? This seems to eliminate the idea that small arms fire is a reasonable method for wearing down the Necrons. What sort of other options do we really have? We have plenty of higher strength weapons, but we're no longer able to spam S10 to force IDs against them (the new RAP does take a -1 penalty when making a save against ID wounds as well) and can the other strengths be taken in enough numbers to make it worth it?


OK look at it this way.

2 wounds to kill the beast
That is 4 unsaved wounds before RAP.
Which is 12 wounds before Invulnerable save
Which is 24 hits against T5
Which is 48 shots at BS3

Now I don't know about you but I would be using markerlights and I might even be trying to rapidfire with Invocation of Fire. That will still take multiple fire warrior squads to put down a single unit of wraiths - which is impressive. I think you really need to be killing those Spyders before the Wraiths get close to charge range or it is going to get pretty painful. Spyders are not so hard to take out as implied above because we have plenty of weapons that can bypass its 3+ armour save and I am really not sure about that W4 quoted. As all this activates on their movement phase it is not up on turn 1 if you get to go first an alpha strike can ruin their day.

However I do think that this is a really tough formation to face and it will not only be Tau that have to look at their lists and tactics to have ways to counter it.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necrons

Post#51 » Feb 02 2015 05:57

I think you nailed it Nic. The spider is going to have to be the priority target in this formation as it provides the RAP save. And if you do go first, it won't have had the chance to pick the rule yet. And its only 3W. Marker light support and heavy weapons will kill it.

Czar Ziggy

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Keeper
Shas
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Re: Necrons

Post#52 » Feb 02 2015 06:09

I also agree that killing the spiders early is key to deal with the wraiths which are then likely going to suffer severe casualties from massed pulse fire combined with markerlight support :fear:

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Zelnik
Shas
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Re: Necrons

Post#53 » Feb 02 2015 11:41

A few things to remember when dealing with this formation.

1. There are wraiths in the squad.

2. See above.

3. Spyders are low to the ground and VERY easy to hide behind LOS blocking cover

4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.

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Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: Necrons

Post#54 » Feb 03 2015 01:40

Zelnik wrote:A few things to remember when dealing with this formation.

1. There are wraiths in the squad.

2. See above.

3. Spyders are low to the ground and VERY easy to hide behind LOS blocking cover

4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.


Please excuse my ignorance as I have not yet encountered the new necrons in a game; is the formation a single unit or is it still separate units that just function together like some of our formation options? If it's the former then perhaps the double burst cannon with ATS battlesuits might be in order to prioritize the spyder's as targets more effectively (maybe even the sniper-side?)?

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1059

Re: Necrons

Post#55 » Feb 03 2015 03:15

ARC'Thunder wrote:Are any of our mathematicians or statisticians available to confirm these numbers? This seems to eliminate the idea that small arms fire is a reasonable method for wearing down the Necrons. What sort of other options do we really have? We have plenty of higher strength weapons, but we're no longer able to spam S10 to force IDs against them (the new RAP does take a -1 penalty when making a save against ID wounds as well) and can the other strengths be taken in enough numbers to make it worth it?


I run some numbers in my tools (developpement is still chaotic due to a full time job):
The best tools to kill Wraiths (ML unassisted) is Missilesides, others are a choice between wounds, price and free slots:

Vs 1xWraith with 4+ RP (avgW=average Wound, ppW=points per wound), sorted by ppW :
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,00 avgW, 98ppW (only one average Wraith killed by 3 missilesides !)
12xFW, 2 shots= 1.00 avgW, 108ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.00 avgW, 109ppW
1xShas'O+2BC+DC+2drones, joining 12xDrone squad= 2.89 avgW, 109ppw

Now with 2ML (BS5 for most of units):
12xFW, 3 shots= 2.50 avgW, 63ppW (added Ethereal to cost of unit for Storm of fire, but cost can be more efficient if shared with others units)
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,59 avgW, 75ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.78 avgW, 79ppW

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necrons

Post#56 » Feb 03 2015 05:03

Carrelio wrote:
Zelnik wrote:A few things to remember when dealing with this formation.

1. There are wraiths in the squad.

2. See above.

3. Spyders are low to the ground and VERY easy to hide behind LOS blocking cover

4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.


Please excuse my ignorance as I have not yet encountered the new necrons in a game; is the formation a single unit or is it still separate units that just function together like some of our formation options? If it's the former then perhaps the double burst cannon with ATS battlesuits might be in order to prioritize the spyder's as targets more effectively (maybe even the sniper-side?)?


It is like a regular formation, separate units, but the Spyder may select a special rule during the Necron movement phase and any other unit from that formation within 12" of the Spyder gains the rule as well. The Spyder may choose; Reanimation Protocol, Fleet, or Shred.

Czar Ziggy

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Morollan
Shas
Posts: 94

Re: Necrons

Post#57 » Feb 03 2015 05:15

Zelnik wrote:4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.


4. Whip Coils don't give an extra attack and Transdimensional beamers are very expensive, adding 25% to the cost of the model.

5. Res Orbs are from the Technoarcana list and none of the models in the Canoptek Harvest formation have access to that list.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necrons

Post#58 » Feb 03 2015 09:18

Plus rez orbs only work for the model holding it and any unit arched to it. There are no longer any bubble effects.

Czar Ziggy

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