Necrons

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necrons

Post#51 » Feb 02 2015 05:57

I think you nailed it Nic. The spider is going to have to be the priority target in this formation as it provides the RAP save. And if you do go first, it won't have had the chance to pick the rule yet. And its only 3W. Marker light support and heavy weapons will kill it.

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Re: Necrons

Post#52 » Feb 02 2015 06:09

I also agree that killing the spiders early is key to deal with the wraiths which are then likely going to suffer severe casualties from massed pulse fire combined with markerlight support :fear:

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Zelnik
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Re: Necrons

Post#53 » Feb 02 2015 11:41

A few things to remember when dealing with this formation.

1. There are wraiths in the squad.

2. See above.

3. Spyders are low to the ground and VERY easy to hide behind LOS blocking cover

4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.

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Carrelio
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Re: Necrons

Post#54 » Feb 03 2015 01:40

Zelnik wrote:A few things to remember when dealing with this formation.

1. There are wraiths in the squad.

2. See above.

3. Spyders are low to the ground and VERY easy to hide behind LOS blocking cover

4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.


Please excuse my ignorance as I have not yet encountered the new necrons in a game; is the formation a single unit or is it still separate units that just function together like some of our formation options? If it's the former then perhaps the double burst cannon with ATS battlesuits might be in order to prioritize the spyder's as targets more effectively (maybe even the sniper-side?)?

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Kael'yn
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Re: Necrons

Post#55 » Feb 03 2015 03:15

ARC'Thunder wrote:Are any of our mathematicians or statisticians available to confirm these numbers? This seems to eliminate the idea that small arms fire is a reasonable method for wearing down the Necrons. What sort of other options do we really have? We have plenty of higher strength weapons, but we're no longer able to spam S10 to force IDs against them (the new RAP does take a -1 penalty when making a save against ID wounds as well) and can the other strengths be taken in enough numbers to make it worth it?


I run some numbers in my tools (developpement is still chaotic due to a full time job):
The best tools to kill Wraiths (ML unassisted) is Missilesides, others are a choice between wounds, price and free slots:

Vs 1xWraith with 4+ RP (avgW=average Wound, ppW=points per wound), sorted by ppW :
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,00 avgW, 98ppW (only one average Wraith killed by 3 missilesides !)
12xFW, 2 shots= 1.00 avgW, 108ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.00 avgW, 109ppW
1xShas'O+2BC+DC+2drones, joining 12xDrone squad= 2.89 avgW, 109ppw

Now with 2ML (BS5 for most of units):
12xFW, 3 shots= 2.50 avgW, 63ppW (added Ethereal to cost of unit for Storm of fire, but cost can be more efficient if shared with others units)
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,59 avgW, 75ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.78 avgW, 79ppW

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necrons

Post#56 » Feb 03 2015 05:03

Carrelio wrote:
Zelnik wrote:A few things to remember when dealing with this formation.

1. There are wraiths in the squad.

2. See above.

3. Spyders are low to the ground and VERY easy to hide behind LOS blocking cover

4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.


Please excuse my ignorance as I have not yet encountered the new necrons in a game; is the formation a single unit or is it still separate units that just function together like some of our formation options? If it's the former then perhaps the double burst cannon with ATS battlesuits might be in order to prioritize the spyder's as targets more effectively (maybe even the sniper-side?)?


It is like a regular formation, separate units, but the Spyder may select a special rule during the Necron movement phase and any other unit from that formation within 12" of the Spyder gains the rule as well. The Spyder may choose; Reanimation Protocol, Fleet, or Shred.

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Re: Necrons

Post#57 » Feb 03 2015 05:15

Zelnik wrote:4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.


4. Whip Coils don't give an extra attack and Transdimensional beamers are very expensive, adding 25% to the cost of the model.

5. Res Orbs are from the Technoarcana list and none of the models in the Canoptek Harvest formation have access to that list.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necrons

Post#58 » Feb 03 2015 09:18

Plus rez orbs only work for the model holding it and any unit arched to it. There are no longer any bubble effects.

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nic
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Re: Necrons

Post#59 » Feb 03 2015 03:56

Zelnik wrote:A few things to remember when dealing with this formation.

1. There are wraiths in the squad.

2. See above.

3. Spyders are low to the ground and VERY easy to hide behind LOS blocking cover

4. The whole squad is relentless. If the Necron player is smart, he will load his wraiths up with Transdimensional Beamers instead of the usual choice. (+3 int and one additional attack doesn't mean much when you have base 3, and rending already).

5. Formations ignore force org, so they can take as many rez orbs as they like, and as many formations of Canoptek harvest as they like.


1. Yes indeed.
2. Do not ignore the scarabs - they can rip stuff up pretty quickly if you do.
3. The trick will be to get the formation across the table while keeping the spyder hidden long enough. I think that will take a bit of skill
4. S4 AP2 with a bit of Instant Death is not nothing but nor is it cheap
5. Hard to find models that can carry res orbs that would not slow the wraiths down and you are seriously increasing the total cost to put it on the table. It is another thing that will take skill to make it work and pay back the cost.

The other big thing about it being a formation is that anyone can take it - not just Necrons - and as Allies of Convenience it would work perfectly alongside Tau.

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Re: Necrons

Post#60 » Feb 03 2015 06:55

We need our own formations beyond the Firebase Support cadre...

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ARC'Thunder
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Re: Necrons

Post#61 » Feb 05 2015 12:08

Kael'yn wrote:I run some numbers in my tools (developpement is still chaotic due to a full time job):
The best tools to kill Wraiths (ML unassisted) is Missilesides, others are a choice between wounds, price and free slots:

Vs 1xWraith with 4+ RP (avgW=average Wound, ppW=points per wound), sorted by ppW :
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,00 avgW, 98ppW (only one average Wraith killed by 3 missilesides !)
12xFW, 2 shots= 1.00 avgW, 108ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.00 avgW, 109ppW
1xShas'O+2BC+DC+2drones, joining 12xDrone squad= 2.89 avgW, 109ppw

Now with 2ML (BS5 for most of units):
12xFW, 3 shots= 2.50 avgW, 63ppW (added Ethereal to cost of unit for Storm of fire, but cost can be more efficient if shared with others units)
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,59 avgW, 75ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.78 avgW, 79ppW
These numbers aren't looking very good.

So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?

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Kael'yn
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Re: Necrons

Post#62 » Feb 05 2015 12:56

ARC'Thunder wrote:So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?


akkristor has the idea hereto use Darkstrider to reduce Wraith Toughness to 4.
It doesn't help HYMP (and the idea of S8 ion rifle is too expensive), but change a little the wound chance for S5 shots
12xFW with Darkstrider goes from 1.00 avgW to 1.33avgW

So if you enhance to the max the unit: 2 markerlights+12xFW(with Shas'ui)+Darkstrider+Fireblade+Ethereal+6 drones (around 400pts)
This give at 12" range (I let you compute the shot count): 7.56 avgW only :-? (and 49ppW)
(Without markerlight, this is as cost-efficient as a unaugmented FW team with around 3.8avgW)
I don't see in any codex a better damage output from a single unit againt Wraiths with 4+ reanimation.
In details:
[spoiler=]All Gunners
Average: 7.56 wounds

Fireblade (+Ethereal) :
Average: 0.37 wounds
Efficiency: 297.0 pts/wound

Darkstrider :
Average: 0.37 wounds
Efficiency: 270.0 pts/wound

Gun Drones :
Average: 2.37 wounds
Efficiency: 30.4 pts/wound

Firewarriors, RF-Pulse Rifle :
Average: 4.44 wounds
Efficiency: 24.3 pts/wound[/spoiler]

This big unit will be of course the target of blasts or cheap CC units...

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nic
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Re: Necrons

Post#63 » Feb 05 2015 01:48

ARC'Thunder wrote:
So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?


Well yes but the question is what happens then - and the answer is not that much. So far the discussion has really looked at the speed and durability of Wraiths which are the outstanding strong points of the unit. When it comes to damage output it is a lot less spectacular. A basic unit of 3 can realistically expect to kill 3 of those Fire Warriors per assault phase - half that if you managed to tag them with a blind grenade first and less (of course) if you got a bit lucky and killed one first. It is well worth noting in passing just how useful those blind grenades are at weakening their already very ordinary damage output. If you can manage to make your morale checks you can keep that more expensive unit locked in combat a while, if they did not take whip coils they do not even have that great a chance of sweeping if/when the FW do fail their morale. Bearing in mind that Fire Warriors are almost legendary for their uselessness in CC the fact that Wraiths cannot just sweep them aside really points up that smashing stuff up fast is not their role in a Necron army.

Wraiths are looking like the best tar-pit in the game (tough, fast, fearless) but as a wrecking ball they fall short of even other Necron options like Flayed Ones.

What I think is going to be important is finding ways to position so that they cannot charge into our primary shooting units and shutting down our offensive power.

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Blueshock
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Re: Necrons

Post#64 » Feb 07 2015 06:39

nic wrote:
ARC'Thunder wrote:
So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?


Well yes but the question is what happens then - and the answer is not that much. So far the discussion has really looked at the speed and durability of Wraiths which are the outstanding strong points of the unit. When it comes to damage output it is a lot less spectacular. A basic unit of 3 can realistically expect to kill 3 of those Fire Warriors per assault phase - half that if you managed to tag them with a blind grenade first and less (of course) if you got a bit lucky and killed one first. It is well worth noting in passing just how useful those blind grenades are at weakening their already very ordinary damage output. If you can manage to make your morale checks you can keep that more expensive unit locked in combat a while, if they did not take whip coils they do not even have that great a chance of sweeping if/when the FW do fail their morale. Bearing in mind that Fire Warriors are almost legendary for their uselessness in CC the fact that Wraiths cannot just sweep them aside really points up that smashing stuff up fast is not their role in a Necron army.

Wraiths are looking like the best tar-pit in the game (tough, fast, fearless) but as a wrecking ball they fall short of even other Necron options like Flayed Ones.

What I think is going to be important is finding ways to position so that they cannot charge into our primary shooting units and shutting down our offensive power.


For these very reasons I have resorted to taking allies including tesseract cubes or abilities such as Lukas the trickster. One unit of blood claws with him in it makes for relatively fun use of dispersing units you can't avoid getting into cc with. Not to mention they are cheaper than what a wraith unit would cost.
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Dubey
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Re: Necrons

Post#65 » Feb 07 2015 06:51

I must say, I used wraiths to great effect in an unbound list against tyranids. My opponent was quite surprised to be held up in the middle of the board by wraiths. After I wiped out his most forward squad of gaunts with it in a single turn, he dedicated quite a bit of firepower to killing those wraiths, losing a venomthrope before they finally got taken down. (He was nervous to CC with them and mainly shot at them with his flyrant.)

I believe they'll make a great new 'hold-em up' unit due to their great speed, ferocity in CC and 3++

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Blueshock
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Re: Necrons

Post#66 » Feb 07 2015 07:13

Dubey wrote:I must say, I used wraiths to great effect in an unbound list against tyranids. My opponent was quite surprised to be held up in the middle of the board by wraiths. After I wiped out his most forward squad of gaunts with it in a single turn, he dedicated quite a bit of firepower to killing those wraiths, losing a venomthrope before they finally got taken down. (He was nervous to CC with them and mainly shot at them with his flyrant.)

I believe they'll make a great new 'hold-em up' unit due to their great speed, ferocity in CC and 3++


My concern with this is that they are still somewhat expensive units in small numbers. Wouldn't hiding them in assault with other weaker units with larger quantities be more effective? Such as say...scarabs or flayed ones?
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Re: Necrons

Post#67 » Feb 09 2015 10:38

Well, the canoptek harvest is probably the ideal way to field them. that 5++ reanimation is pretty amazing on their 3++ hineys.
They already soak up a lot of firepower and stop your opponent's beatsticks from getting to your frontline all willy-nilly. Can't just walk passed 9 attacks that can rend with your expensive melee units. They're also the same price as termies, but slightly less vulnerable to ap thanks to the 3++ with higher strength and more attacks.

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Morollan
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Re: Necrons

Post#68 » Feb 13 2015 04:25

Dubey wrote:They're also the same price as termies, but slightly less vulnerable to ap thanks to the 3++ with higher strength and more attacks.


Terminators across the Imperium are crying into the pillows, wishing they had the stats of a Canoptek Wraith. T5, W2, 3++? Yes please!! Might actually make Terminators worthwhile playing.

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