Necrons

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
User avatar
ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 850

Re: Necrons

Post#61 » Feb 05 2015 12:08

Kael'yn wrote:I run some numbers in my tools (developpement is still chaotic due to a full time job):
The best tools to kill Wraiths (ML unassisted) is Missilesides, others are a choice between wounds, price and free slots:

Vs 1xWraith with 4+ RP (avgW=average Wound, ppW=points per wound), sorted by ppW :
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,00 avgW, 98ppW (only one average Wraith killed by 3 missilesides !)
12xFW, 2 shots= 1.00 avgW, 108ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.00 avgW, 109ppW
1xShas'O+2BC+DC+2drones, joining 12xDrone squad= 2.89 avgW, 109ppw

Now with 2ML (BS5 for most of units):
12xFW, 3 shots= 2.50 avgW, 63ppW (added Ethereal to cost of unit for Storm of fire, but cost can be more efficient if shared with others units)
3xXV88+HYMP+SMS = 2,59 avgW, 75ppW
3xXV8+TL-BC+BC+6drones+DC= 2.78 avgW, 79ppW
These numbers aren't looking very good.

So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?

User avatar
Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1097

Re: Necrons

Post#62 » Feb 05 2015 12:56

ARC'Thunder wrote:So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?


akkristor has the idea hereto use Darkstrider to reduce Wraith Toughness to 4.
It doesn't help HYMP (and the idea of S8 ion rifle is too expensive), but change a little the wound chance for S5 shots
12xFW with Darkstrider goes from 1.00 avgW to 1.33avgW

So if you enhance to the max the unit: 2 markerlights+12xFW(with Shas'ui)+Darkstrider+Fireblade+Ethereal+6 drones (around 400pts)
This give at 12" range (I let you compute the shot count): 7.56 avgW only :-? (and 49ppW)
(Without markerlight, this is as cost-efficient as a unaugmented FW team with around 3.8avgW)
I don't see in any codex a better damage output from a single unit againt Wraiths with 4+ reanimation.
In details:
[spoiler=]All Gunners
Average: 7.56 wounds

Fireblade (+Ethereal) :
Average: 0.37 wounds
Efficiency: 297.0 pts/wound

Darkstrider :
Average: 0.37 wounds
Efficiency: 270.0 pts/wound

Gun Drones :
Average: 2.37 wounds
Efficiency: 30.4 pts/wound

Firewarriors, RF-Pulse Rifle :
Average: 4.44 wounds
Efficiency: 24.3 pts/wound[/spoiler]

This big unit will be of course the target of blasts or cheap CC units...

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 807

Re: Necrons

Post#63 » Feb 05 2015 01:48

ARC'Thunder wrote:
So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?


Well yes but the question is what happens then - and the answer is not that much. So far the discussion has really looked at the speed and durability of Wraiths which are the outstanding strong points of the unit. When it comes to damage output it is a lot less spectacular. A basic unit of 3 can realistically expect to kill 3 of those Fire Warriors per assault phase - half that if you managed to tag them with a blind grenade first and less (of course) if you got a bit lucky and killed one first. It is well worth noting in passing just how useful those blind grenades are at weakening their already very ordinary damage output. If you can manage to make your morale checks you can keep that more expensive unit locked in combat a while, if they did not take whip coils they do not even have that great a chance of sweeping if/when the FW do fail their morale. Bearing in mind that Fire Warriors are almost legendary for their uselessness in CC the fact that Wraiths cannot just sweep them aside really points up that smashing stuff up fast is not their role in a Necron army.

Wraiths are looking like the best tar-pit in the game (tough, fast, fearless) but as a wrecking ball they fall short of even other Necron options like Flayed Ones.

What I think is going to be important is finding ways to position so that they cannot charge into our primary shooting units and shutting down our offensive power.

User avatar
Blueshock
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 975
Contact:

Re: Necrons

Post#64 » Feb 07 2015 06:39

nic wrote:
ARC'Thunder wrote:
So, one of our best—and easily fielded—bets is a squad of Fire Warriors shooting at a range that ensures they're being charged the next turn?


Well yes but the question is what happens then - and the answer is not that much. So far the discussion has really looked at the speed and durability of Wraiths which are the outstanding strong points of the unit. When it comes to damage output it is a lot less spectacular. A basic unit of 3 can realistically expect to kill 3 of those Fire Warriors per assault phase - half that if you managed to tag them with a blind grenade first and less (of course) if you got a bit lucky and killed one first. It is well worth noting in passing just how useful those blind grenades are at weakening their already very ordinary damage output. If you can manage to make your morale checks you can keep that more expensive unit locked in combat a while, if they did not take whip coils they do not even have that great a chance of sweeping if/when the FW do fail their morale. Bearing in mind that Fire Warriors are almost legendary for their uselessness in CC the fact that Wraiths cannot just sweep them aside really points up that smashing stuff up fast is not their role in a Necron army.

Wraiths are looking like the best tar-pit in the game (tough, fast, fearless) but as a wrecking ball they fall short of even other Necron options like Flayed Ones.

What I think is going to be important is finding ways to position so that they cannot charge into our primary shooting units and shutting down our offensive power.


For these very reasons I have resorted to taking allies including tesseract cubes or abilities such as Lukas the trickster. One unit of blood claws with him in it makes for relatively fun use of dispersing units you can't avoid getting into cc with. Not to mention they are cheaper than what a wraith unit would cost.
My T'au Army

~My Life for the Empire~

User avatar
Dubey
Shas
Posts: 74

Re: Necrons

Post#65 » Feb 07 2015 06:51

I must say, I used wraiths to great effect in an unbound list against tyranids. My opponent was quite surprised to be held up in the middle of the board by wraiths. After I wiped out his most forward squad of gaunts with it in a single turn, he dedicated quite a bit of firepower to killing those wraiths, losing a venomthrope before they finally got taken down. (He was nervous to CC with them and mainly shot at them with his flyrant.)

I believe they'll make a great new 'hold-em up' unit due to their great speed, ferocity in CC and 3++

User avatar
Blueshock
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 975
Contact:

Re: Necrons

Post#66 » Feb 07 2015 07:13

Dubey wrote:I must say, I used wraiths to great effect in an unbound list against tyranids. My opponent was quite surprised to be held up in the middle of the board by wraiths. After I wiped out his most forward squad of gaunts with it in a single turn, he dedicated quite a bit of firepower to killing those wraiths, losing a venomthrope before they finally got taken down. (He was nervous to CC with them and mainly shot at them with his flyrant.)

I believe they'll make a great new 'hold-em up' unit due to their great speed, ferocity in CC and 3++


My concern with this is that they are still somewhat expensive units in small numbers. Wouldn't hiding them in assault with other weaker units with larger quantities be more effective? Such as say...scarabs or flayed ones?
My T'au Army

~My Life for the Empire~

User avatar
Dubey
Shas
Posts: 74

Re: Necrons

Post#67 » Feb 09 2015 10:38

Well, the canoptek harvest is probably the ideal way to field them. that 5++ reanimation is pretty amazing on their 3++ hineys.
They already soak up a lot of firepower and stop your opponent's beatsticks from getting to your frontline all willy-nilly. Can't just walk passed 9 attacks that can rend with your expensive melee units. They're also the same price as termies, but slightly less vulnerable to ap thanks to the 3++ with higher strength and more attacks.

User avatar
Morollan
Shas
Posts: 94

Re: Necrons

Post#68 » Feb 13 2015 04:25

Dubey wrote:They're also the same price as termies, but slightly less vulnerable to ap thanks to the 3++ with higher strength and more attacks.


Terminators across the Imperium are crying into the pillows, wishing they had the stats of a Canoptek Wraith. T5, W2, 3++? Yes please!! Might actually make Terminators worthwhile playing.

Return to “Engaging the Alien”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests