Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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gr1m_dan
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Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#1 » Feb 14 2014 06:43

Fellow Commanders,

I have seen intel reports of a new foe. The Imperial Knight. It is not pleasant reading.

Links on various forums have pictures up from an upcoming White Dwarf with the rules for at least two of these Knight variants. I won't link them up directly but I am sure you will be seeing them soon.

We are facing - (not breaking rules as they are in WD!)

Armour value of a Hammerhead, but 1 better on the rear.

A shield that covers a quadrant of the knight with an ++ save equal to a Shield Gen. Other areas are not covered. Player decides each enemy shooting phase which side is covered.

A CC weapon of D strength. In normal games...hmm.

Can be taken as Allies or as it's own army. In 1.5k games I would expect between 3 and 4.

Double the hullpoints of a Hammerhead. Super-Heavy Walker. Invincible Behemoth, etc.

----

Commanders, it is without doubt we will be seeing these very frequently. The models look stunning and if priced correctly, will sell like hot cakes. They can be taken as Allies so I expect to see 1 or 2 in most armies, at least Imperial Armies.

Initial tactics I have thought of is to somehow cover multiple sides of it's armour at once. With most of it's weapons I expect to this to be striding forward to get in to combat with it's D weapon and STOMP attacks. This should allow us to attack it from various angles and negate it's save. If we can get past this, I believe we can easily strip it's hull points. I am thinking deepstriking Fusion teams for rear/side and Hammerheads from the front to force a decision on which area to cover with a shield.

Against 1 of these I believe it will be straight forward. Against their own army of 3-6, I think this could be just impossible to take down in a standard game.
The Shadow that strikes, he that walks unseen

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Jefffar
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#2 » Feb 14 2014 07:03

The good news is that we'll hear less complaints about Riptides.

A few other good points:

Heavy Rail Rifles can penetrate the armour and so can Seeker Missiles. Missile Pods and non-overcharged Ion weapons can glance them. So even with their shield we can hurt them without Railguns. Being vehicles, a squad of firewarriors with EMP grenades is a potentially lethal threat.

They aren't cheap and use a lord of war slot, so we won't see them spammed (except in special circumstances). Having one in a 1500 point game is about 25% of the list, significantly reducing the amount of scoring units.

There is a freebooter option apparently, allowing us to use them if we want, though if I know it's an escalation game, a Tigershark A-X-10 is probably my preferred option anyway.

Merodda
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#3 » Feb 14 2014 07:21

Now these are OLD. The Imperial Knights appeared in the Old Warhammer 40K Epic Battles as part of the Titan Legion expansion. A smaller version of a Titan that came in several different varieties:

Knight Paladin: The archetypal Knight, armed with a large-calibre Battle Cannon and a giant Chainsword.
Knight Errant: Highly suited to attacking larger targets like Mega Gargants. They carry fearsome Thermal Cannons capable of easily vaporizing steel or flesh.
Knight Lancer: A faster version of the standard Knight, the agile Lancer out-flanks the enemy and scouts their defensive positions. The Lancer is armed with a Battle Cannon and Power Lance for close combat.
Knight Crusader: The heaviest types of Knight made by Forgeworlds along with the Knight Castellan. Though slower and less nimble, they have increased firepower in the form of Lascannons, Quake Cannons, and Heavy Bolters in addition to increased armor.
Knight Castellan: Similar to the Knight Crusader, but replaces its Lascannon with a multi-barrel Autocannon, giving it better firepower against enemy infantry and light vehicles.
Baron: The leader of a contingent of Knights with razor-sharp warrior skills. As a sign of status every Baron has a custom-made Knight suit. Most Barons' suits are armed with power lances and rapid-fire battlecannons

I think I still have the old plastic models somewhere. Seems fitting that they would be brought out now the big guns have started appearing. In the Epic game the shield only worked on the front facing so that choosing the shield facing is a new trick.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#4 » Feb 14 2014 07:51

Seems just like an oversized Dreadnought, shouldn't be tough to kill at all...

CariadocThorne
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#5 » Feb 14 2014 07:56

If rear av is only 1 better than a hammerhead you could glance to death in 1 turn with 2 squads of fw and an ethereal jumping out of devilfish, preferably with a markerlight or 2. You just need an riptide in front to draw the shield that way.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#6 » Feb 14 2014 08:15

Well, there are a few caveats that make them more durable and dangerous than you might expect from an upsized Ironclad Dreadnought.

It has more Hull Points. Around double, if I'm not mistaken. It can take a serious amount of punishment, including a few Explodes! results if you roll low on the Hull Point damage.

It is a Super-heavy vehicle, and thus immune to having its weapons destroyed or being immobilized. If you haven't destroyed it, it is still coming for you at full force, very similar to a Monstrous Creature does. A Knight with 1 HP left is just as effective at shooting and melee as one with all of them.

It is fast. Super-heavy Walkers move around twice as fast as normal walkers. That means you have a lot less time to deal with the threat than you would any Dreadnought that isn't coming in a Drop Pod first time.

It is DEVASTATING in close combat. Strength D weapons are nothing to sneeze at, and it effectively gets 1 to 3 small blasts of railgun submunition levels of strength and AP, or better (including the potential to punt an offending vehicle like an evil overlord kicks puppies).

All that, for (if the rumors are true) a little less than the cost of a couple Ironclad Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods.

Is it worth it? One seems like it'll be overwhelmed and popped without too much effort (especially given our flexibility and quantity of potential AP 1 shots to get those juicy Explodes! results), while 2 or more seems like it'll be straining normal Anti-tank capabilities found in a TAC list.

I'm going to reserve final judgement until I see one in-game, but I think only way they'll be only be worrisome when spammed.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#7 » Feb 14 2014 08:22

And of course, the most important question is... What can I use to convert my own Tau Empirical Samurai for use with my converted Space Wolves? :eek: :roll: :evil:

R.D.
Shas'La
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#8 » Feb 14 2014 11:33

They do apparently cost 110 Euros, so unless your opponent is Richie Rich I doubt more than two will be seen in a casual match. I think these can be dealt with just as Tau can deal with wraithknights, just in a different way; fusion suits taking the risk to get up and close, probably.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#9 » Feb 15 2014 12:06

According to this, the point costs I've heard are not undisputed.

Oh, it also mentions different stats from what has been mentioned earlier in this thread!

That said, the stats are close enough that we should be able to figure out strategies to deal with them, assuming either rumor is close.

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Kakapo42
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#10 » Feb 15 2014 12:15

Well so far of the possible classes of Knight I have seen confirmation of at least the Paladin and Errant. Of the two I think the Paladin might be more dangerous, as I imagine it would have a longer reach with it's gun armament. Assuming this weapon's characteristics are similar to a battle cannon, it would have a fair bit of range and be quite a threat to battlesuit teams and Firewarriors alike. The Errant, which seems to have some sort of melta weapon, would likely have a much smaller threat radius and thus be easier to evade.

That is just my thinking at least, though without access to the full rules I could easily be completely wrong.

EDIT: the proposed rules on BLOS would seem to support my thinking, though both Knights seem to have considerable range on their main guns.
Last edited by Kakapo42 on Feb 15 2014 12:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#11 » Feb 15 2014 12:18

Pretty much every rumor I've heard regarding the Paladin's armament indicates a 2-shot Battle Cannon with a Heavy Stubber or two. And the rumors I've heard about the melta weapon all match those of the link I provided - short (HBC-esque) range, S 9, Melta, Large Blast.




Edit: Something just occurred to me, and this may be a double-edged sword of sorts, but the Catastrophic Damage table is used for all Super-Heavy Vehicles now. That means that destroying the Imperial Knight in their backfield is that much more devastating, but it also means we really, really need to kill an opponent's Knight before it gets too close to our front lines. I think, in general, this will be more often to the Knight owner's benefit. :(

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Kakapo42
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#12 » Feb 15 2014 02:53

Unusualsuspect wrote:Edit: Something just occurred to me, and this may be a double-edged sword of sorts, but the Catastrophic Damage table is used for all Super-Heavy Vehicles now. That means that destroying the Imperial Knight in their backfield is that much more devastating, but it also means we really, really need to kill an opponent's Knight before it gets too close to our front lines. I think, in general, this will be more often to the Knight owner's benefit. :(


If that's true then it strikes me that a quick strike with a fusion blaster armed 'suicide unit' could potentially be devastating, as they quickly engage the Knight, and if successful not only destroy it but also inflict considerable collateral damage amongst the rest of the enemy force. It's unlikely that the unit in question would survive, but I imagine it would more than make back it's points worth.

Another thing that occurs to me is that the impact of catastrophic damage could have an influence on deployment by forcing the player using the Knight to either deploy it close with their other units to provide support and have their battleline vulnerable to collateral damage if the Knight's destroyed, or spread their units out more to minimise the impact of catastrophic damage and leave their forces more vulnerable to being eliminated piecemeal by our more mobile elements.

Another thought: perhaps an idea could be to use fast-moving vehicles like aircraft and Piranhas to set up seeker missiles on different angles against the Knight's rear or side armour, then guide them in with a well placed Markerlight unit?
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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#13 » Feb 15 2014 03:04

Fusion Piranhas (From the stats given, even if it were 11 in the back, BC Piranhas just wouldn't be putting enough firepower to be a viable threat) seems like they'd be uniquely useful in forcing a Knight to choose between the rock of the Fusion Piranha and the hard place of the Broadside/Riptide/Crisis suits, in that no matter where the Knight places his ++ shield, he's going to receive some nasty firepower somewhere that isn't shielded. Their maneuverability seem particularly suited to the task.

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Rapier40
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#14 » Feb 15 2014 06:32

Hammerhead and piranha squadrons, "challenge accepted." ;)
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boomwolf
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#15 » Feb 15 2014 03:50

While the knights do no seem to be quite as vulnerable to fusion teams as your everyday tank, by the few pictures that we HAVE seen so far, they cost about 50% over a deckout out riptide, give on take. (depend on your "deckout out" setup, and what knight is in question, different knights cost slightly differently)

But essentially, a knight is a "super dread" much like a riptide is a "super crisis", they are both near-impossible to kill in one hit, feature a nifty invul, and have better armor, on top of more wounds (HP is practically wounds), the SH status of the knight also makes them quite more formidable then a regular dread in CC, especially while charging, less likely to end up tarpitted (stomp), being faster, and outright immune to "vehicle damage".
These boys are no laughing matter to put down.
With either dual-shot battle cannon, or a meltagun with triple the range, +1 to S and large blast rules they can also pack a punch themselves in shooting. and there is a third type, yet to be revealed.

Armed to the teeth, not easy to knock down...



Now, how to deal.
With 12 rear they feature, they are immune to any type of pulse weapon, so don't bother there.
The front and sides are even tougher, but not by much. still enough to render missile pods and their likes nigh-useless.
The ion shield is intresting. a 50% invul save, but on once facing only. will help against armies that depend entirely on drop melta, or on ranged bombardment, but as long you got both it wont matter much.
A single knight, is a tough nut to crack, but eventually will be cracked by any army that can properly remove armor.
Pack your melta suits, wake up longstrike-they got work to do.
Riptides can also help, a NOVA shot of the IA has move then a decent chance to put a dent into them-after all, they are tougher then two tanks, but cost more then the same two tanks.


Your main fear, is when they come in groups.
Up to 3 can be as an allied detachment to any imperial army, or if you take that many, and up to double-they can be your main.
Fighting an army composed mostly of them will feel like fighting an armored battle group, except on steriods.

They will cover ground quickly enough, put out impressive firepower, and wreck most forces in CC. you anti-tank weapons will be hard-pressed to take them all out, especially when taking one out puts a serious risk to kill the fusion attackers by themselves.

You will also find many of your guns have been reduced to fancy chopsticks, pulse rifles, flamers, etc cant even get a chance.
Nothing at all. all your horde control guns cant even get the "once in a blue moon" chance to glance, unlike dealing with "just" riptides/wraithknights/etc
Even EMP commandos are unlikely to put much more of a minor chip in the paint, given they will be unlikely to survive long enough to use them in CC.

Also, as they are NOT lords of war-you do not get the fancy escalation bonuses. you need to deal with them the traditional way.

Fusion all the way mates. and hope the dice gods are at your side.

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Jefffar
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#16 » Feb 15 2014 03:57

And remember, Explodes results don't kill the beasts, only do an extra D3 Hull Points to them. So don't count on that 1 lucky roll. Your need to overpower them with mass vehicle killing shots.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#17 » Feb 15 2014 07:37

HYMP Broadsides, two Markerlights, and a PEN Commander.

A cheeky tactic would be dropping Crisis Suits behind them with Fusion Blasters, and having the above HYMP setup in your gunline. Tough choice to make as far as picking a facing.

Even better, you can position your Fusion Team so that they are aiming at different facings for different members, so it can't block all of them...

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Jefffar
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#18 » Feb 15 2014 07:59

A Firebase Support Cadre might be a good option to include if there is the possibility of one or more knights in an opposing force.

I've always been a fan of placing my broadside teams at opposite sides of my deployment zone because it can set up flank shots as the enemy has to chose a team to face. This is going to be even more advantageous with that wonky invulnerable shield.

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