Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#121 » Sep 10 2014 06:47

Hey guys

I have not yet had the challenge of facing a Knight, and was hoping those experienced 'vres that have could share some more words of wisdom?

Particularly what worked? What did not? and any other thoughts re: Imperial Knights

I have my first tournament coming up end of November so I'd like to do some play testing with some solid strategy in place
Right now I'll most likely be running a Farsight bomb but wanting some extra insight as to what supporting units should be taken


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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#122 » Sep 10 2014 08:12

I'd recommend missile sides as your go to option, they are the most reliable and you will need spam to get enough hits through the ion shield.

I find the most fearsome thing with Knights is their speed, they can very quickly be ontop of you and locked in combat. However that said, I haven't struggled with them as Tau. I have an opponent who regularly takes one or two knights, and they have died every game to a whole plethora of weapons.

My kills include;
Single Railgun Shot
R'Varna 2 rounds of shooting with some supporting fire
Missile side barrages
Single Onager Gauntlet hit with very lucky rolls of the dice.

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#123 » Sep 16 2014 10:16

Having just mentioned the challenges of the Imperial Knight in another thread, I came over here to start a new thread about challenging Imperial Knights. Instead I noticed we already had one so here goes.

Lately I have been inactive here on ATT, and this has been largely due to me being inactive with my Tau forces. I have played the Tau Empire since their release. I struggled through the 'dark times' when our codex was ancient and everything. Even so, one thing has made me shelve my blue men and play my Tyranids instead.

Imperial Knights.

With the 'buffs' to vehicles in 7th edition, the already outstanding Imperial Knights have become amazingly good. So much so that I face on average three Knights. Sometimes I have seen five of the things in my opponent's deployment zone.

In the good old days, I would have countered them with broadside teams. Or fast moving Hammerheads playing pincer movements for side armor. However, our new codex, as everyone knows removed those tried and true options. We got a bunch of improvements to help us out. Fusion weapons are everywhere, and even stealth teams can make good tank crackers these days. Longstrike lets us have preferred enemy Imperium on a s10 ap1 shot. All of these options are outstanding for removing one or two heavy enemy options. Missile pods and such help cover the bases of medium and light armor.

Imperial Knights are AV13 with a 4++. That is just enough armor to be too tough for our missile pods to reliably take down, and just enough 4++ to make our railguns a crap shoot.

It seems like our options are melta. The good old out maneuver with Fusion guns. The -crisis- removing XV-8's to the rescue!

Except the Imperial Knight gets to choose which facing his 4++ shield is on at the -start- of -our- shooting phase.

Redundancy! I claim. Two full fusion teams, he can't shield both sides! And it works spectacularly, making that Knight go up in a small mushroom cloud that often takes a lot of the suits with it.

Problem solved you say! Except now both of those fusion teams get blasted by a minimum of two s8 ap3 large blasts from the -other- Imperial Knight standing nearby with a rapid fire battle cannon.

Stealth teams then! Two stealth teams cost more than the Knight, and if the Knight goes first... it shoots it's heavy weapon at my suits or gunline, and a stubber at the stealth teams, and then charges and wipes out the stealth teams with a sD melee weapon, or stomp attacks if those don't work.

Ok so stealth teams... not so reliable...

Piranhas! Five fish with fusion speeding up, surrounding the dang thing to keep it from shielding all of the shots. Spectacular kill! I lose a few fish to the sD explosions, but they don't cost as much as the... they are all killed by the rapid fire guns on the -other- Imperial Knights.

Tigershark AX-1-0! Assuming my opponent is nice enough to allow me to use a Lord of War. Single sD ap1 heavy rail!... 4++ Ion Shield. Awesome. As much of a crap shoot as the Hammerhead. In fact I can get nearly four hammerheads for the price of that AX-1-0. As a flier, he can't even get a shot every turn, and when he can, Ion Shields flicker to his arc every time.

Broadsides? Surely 24 s7 shots can glance the jerks to death? Glancing on 6s. Huzzah like 6 glances! 4++... 3 glances! Only need another turn of that to kill the... melta cannon. No saves. Awesome.

Skyray... can you help me out? No? You quit? Me too.

I have played countless games against these Imperial Knights. I have tried spamming XV-88's. I have tried using a combination of different options. I have brought in the AX-1-0. I have used two CADs to field six Hammerheads. I tried my trusty fusion suits. Riptides. Piranhas. EMP Commandos. Stealth Teams. If it's in the Tau arsenal, I have brought it to bear. Yet the Imperial Knights stride through the wreckage of cadre after cadre. The only time I have been able to defeat them is when I have list tailored to playing against the IMP Knight list. All of my suits were fusion suits. I had six teams of deep-striking fusion XV-8's as my troops in a FSE cadre. The kroot I had to field to keep all that in reserve coward in every tiny piece of terrain I could find. Even then, not all four Imperial Knights were slain. One was busy cutting down my valiant Shas'Ui in his own backfield which gave me a victory by objective. Objective Secured!

The reason so many landing teams did well, is because I could deep-strike in between the knights, let him choose Ion Shield facing, and then have the teams switch targets on the Knights that had chosen poorly.

So all of this doom is for one reason.

How. How are you people defeating these guys? What unit or combination am I missing? I have moved to playing my Tyranids, because they can pull the Knights apart in Melee where the 4++ is useless. My Heirophant Bio-titan crawls all over Knights as if the things were toddlers. My Tau on the other hand, feel like they are beating off an alligator with a nerf sword.

My cadres are depleted, and our morale is broken. We need reinforcements...

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#124 » Sep 16 2014 11:09

Soooooo.... You're saying taking a knight as an ally is a good thing then? ;)

Sounds like your "meta" (god how I hate that word!!), has a lot of knights in it? As the author of this thread is asking, why not include an imperial knight? For you, it may throw enough of a twist into things to throw your opponents off their game.

You already have to start him separated, let him flank. They will obviously focus on him, which may allow you to being your other forces around the backend of their forces, allowing you to hopefully get in behind their shields... Personally, I,wouldn't want to decide between a group of crisis teams behind me and a knight in front of me.

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#125 » Sep 16 2014 02:17

No one unit effectively counters the Imperial Knight. My usual counters consist of 1-2 XV104, 1-2 Helios XV8 teams and 1-2 either XV25 with 2x fusion or else a trio of missilesides. You have to attack from multiple angles - that's the only way to counter the ion shield. For Crisis/Stealth, you may have to stay outside of melta range in order to avoid the catastrophic destruction blast, but S8 can still destroy a knight effectively, with enough of it. Railsides might be an option - with their range they can start banging away turn 1, and with their 2+ armor, they might survive a battle cannon hit. That thermal cannon is still death, though, and the ion shield is a showstopper.

Hammerheads, or at least railheads, are a waste of energy IMHO. Too much chance for that one shot, even BS10 and Tank Hunters, to fail you when you need it most. The Skyray gets you six effective shots - once. Seems dubious to me, too.

One of them is not too hard to counter. But three to five? Ouch. That's "that guy" territory, for sure.

Here's something to try: deploy two Riptides front and center, one with the HBC and one with IA. Park 'em in cover or behind an Aegis line, if you have cover better than 5+ available (and if you have an Aegis line, consider taking the lascannon). Yep, the ion shield will probably point at them. That's the idea. Use whatever tricks you have available to reduce the danger from Gets Hot: if you're running FSE, O'Vesa and another cannontide with ECPA is a good way to go. If not, enough markerlights to hit BS6 is a start even if it doesn't reduce the threat from nova-charge failures. You'll want stims, too: you want the Riptides tanking as much of the return fire as possible. I suppose you could use R'Varnas here too, but I don't have any, so I haven't tried it.

Next, hit from both sides. Use Commander Shadowsun (in an allied det/secondary CAD, obviously, if your primary is FSE) to outflank in some Broadsides. Bring her CLD, some missile drones and maybe her MV52 shield drones. If she's close enough her fusion blasters are a threat too, but if she's not, don't sweat it. Her cover saves also help against the inevitable return fire, even blocking the thermal cannon potentially. Then Deep Strike some Sunforge or Helios XV8s on the other side or to the rear. Hopefully scatter isn't too cruel. If you have Farsight, drop him in here too - remember, he's faster than a Knight and has an Armorbane sword. He's got a shield generator, too, so with a little luck, he could survive a D-weapon hit. If you feel froggy, a commander with Fusion Blades is something to try. I honestly don't know how well it'd work, but it's worth trying with some shield drones.

Last but not least, you have some Fire Warriors, right? Had to take them, or Kroot, to go with your allied C:TE CAD. Give them EMP 'nades, and make them part of the trap. Then spring it. Fire away. Chuck a 'nade if you're in range (try to be). The ion shield can only go in one direction. Hopefully the fire coming in the other directions is enough to bring the beast down - don't forget they're AV12 on the sides and rear, so your fire from there will be more effective, and plasma rifles or CIBs might do something. If the mechanical monstrosity still isn't dead, charge with anything that can damage the armor: Farsight, Riptides, Fire Warriors or Pathfinders with EMP 'nades, Commanders with Fusion Blades or an Onager Gauntlet. Take your lumps from the chainsword and let the survivors swing back. Hopefully that will be enough.

Unfortunately, if you're facing That Guy, there's still four more to go...

There are a few other options - Allies! Obviously, all of these have to be used together with the rest of what Tau can bring, but they may provide the edge that you're missing.

Imperial Guard - Leman Russ squadrons. Three battle cannons and lascannons will at least force the ion shield to point that way; at that point Deep Strike behind with Crisis or Riptides.

Space Marines - Storm Raven! It flies, and with its AV, the Knight can't hurt it with the stubbers. Use its missiles, multi-melta and lascannon or assault cannons. Carry a dual-autocannon Dreadnought for good measure and plop it somewhere that forces the Knight to deal with antitank shooting from two sides. Devastators or a Predator are another option but they really aren't much better than Railsides.

Space Wolves - See Space Marines, but s/Raven/Fang/ and you'll have to do without the Dread, unless you just strap a Helfrost Cannon on one and lem it up the middle while the flyer brings a Helfrost Destructor from the side or rear. It could work but it's not much better than anything Tau can do alone.

Adepta Sororitas - Dominions. Outflank with meltas in an Immolator with - you guessed it - more meltas. Give the Sister Superior a combi-melta and melta bombs. Then pray that today, the Emperor really does protect when you roll your Shield of Faith against the exploding Knight. Well, nuts. Maybe don't do this. Sisters Repentia would also be a suicide squad, but flaming hilarious if it works.

Eldar - Wraithknight. Grab a Farseer as your required HQ for the chance at a witchfire with Haywire, and to twin-link your Wraithknight's shooting (and melee attacks, with Prescience). Forewarning and Fortune will be enough for a Wraithknight to melee down a Knight, if you're lucky enough to get them. Crimson Hunters, Shining Spears, Wraithguard and Fire Dragons are other options, as is the Falcon. If you're really feeling lucky, take Eldrad and try to get Fortune, Forewarning, Prescience and Eldritch Storm all on the same guy... (Don't do this. But if you do, and you luck out, well... Film it and giggle.)

Dark Eldar - Wytches with Haywire 'nades in a Raider as your required troops choice, an Archon with various bits of nastiness to back them up or a Haemonculus to keep it cheap, then a Ravager in Heavy Support.

Necrons - Warriors. Lots of Warriors. You have Gauss, use it. Repeatedly. With great relish. Giggle gleefully at That Guy while your wimpy metal skeletons disassemble his shiny toys one atom at a time. Then wonder what you're going to do with these footslogging metal skeletons... At least they're Allies of Convenience now.

Tyranids - Hive Tyrant. Make it fly, take Electroshock Grubs, two twin-linked brainleech devourers, and hope for Warp Blast. Then hope he left the anti-air at home. Fly around being a horrible pain in the neck. You could take a Hive Crone, too, if you have the points. Or take a Harridan and really make them cry. A Tyrannofex can hurt a Knight, but it's a crapshoot. Running a trio of Stonecrusher Carnifexes would be a good way to draw attention, too - the tactic's not called "distraction Carnifex" for nothing...

And that's just what I can think of, offhand. I'm sure Chaos and Orks have their own fun toys, too, I just don't know them well enough.

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#126 » Sep 16 2014 03:09

... Or, as my friend sometimes does: if someone shows up with any That Guy list, he says "you win" and finds someone else to play. ;)

I, on the other hand, will play any battle presented to me... plenty to learn in a loss.

My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#127 » Sep 16 2014 05:02

On the idea of Orks.

Really any ork mob, with Nob with power claw.
Cheap and you can pile in such a manner that the Nob does not get killed with D weapon.... Them stomps are a different thing though.

Allies can help a great deal. Someone who has lots of fast cheap melta (Eldar, Sisters) or some big guns (IG).
But still.... wouldnt want to play against 5 IK, thats just.... no fun. Same like facing 6 Riptides and "fun" lists like those.

Was just thinking - Daemons could tear them a new one. Get the proper combination, "open ze grimoir" and let your big shredders ..... well.... tear them to shreds i guess :D

....Or just bring in a Manta, in 2K game, and watch your enemy cry himself to sleep XD

*Christ - it edited "N0OB" Into new person.... i kinda always though the orks have two O in there but i guess they are just Nobs, not N00bs. Lolz
Last edited by Myrdin on Sep 17 2014 02:04, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#128 » Sep 16 2014 06:44

So my point is made by everyone else. There is no method of countering these lists with Tau.

Allying in a Knight or three, or any other allies is not countering using anything in the Tau arsenal.

I play my Tyranids now because I can kill the things with Hive Tyrants and Bio-Titans and Carnifex and rending GeneStealers etc. etc.

I can deep-strike Elysian fusion teams, and they work well when they land, but again... there are always at least another two Imperial Knights.

To make matters worse, the guy who uses -one- Imperial Knight also has two Leman Russ squadrons and two infantry platoons of Guard.

I just feel like the Knights are broken good. If they had to choose their Ion shield's facing on the end of their turn then at least we could out meneuver them. Being able to setup that Ion Shield on your opponent's shooting phase is just disgusting on an already amazingly good model.

Also, as I despise the Imperial Knight, I will not be buying one. It's price tag alone makes me cringe. Perhaps I can build a Tau-Knight conversion of some sort and just use it's rules.

Still, it seems like a cop out.

*edit - Apparently x3 R'Varnas have a decent shot of glancing them to death with Nova rapid fire. Each R'Vanra can theoretically kill a Knight in two turns. So three of them should mean you are killing around three of the Knights by the time they have closed with your army on turn 2. Then the Fusion XV-8's can drop in to finish the last two. Assuming your opponent lets you field the R'Varna.

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#129 » Sep 16 2014 08:12

Nevar - seems like a Farsight Bomb could do the trick. And, it'd have plenty of usability after you brought the Knight down. Have you tried that?

My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

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Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#130 » Sep 16 2014 10:02

What do you mean "no one unit counters the knight"?

Double fusion suits do.

You just need to have enough teams to multi-drop. get one team on each flank (flank and rear is better, but get flank FIRST, than rear, to make sure scatter wont take you to rear and then you got double rear), whoever the shield is not aimed at takes lights to be BS5 (if you had spares, let the other team have them just in case the first will have a fluke) and blasts away. if you dropped two teams of two, odds are the knight is dead even if he was on 100%, with some luck without casualties. (though the knight's dead rattle has a chance to take out a suit or two)

Even if its just two singulars-it will still cause serious damage (potentially even kill with luck), at a fraction of the cost of the knight itself. I'd say its a decent counter.

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