Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
User avatar
Nevar
Shas'Vre
Posts: 663

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#131 » Sep 16 2014 11:33

Perhaps I am not being clear by the responses I am getting.

I can kill an Imperial Knight. I can do so with humorous ease.

I play Enclaves for Aun's sake, I am well versed in the application of drop fusion.

The question, is how do you kill three of them? Or five of them? They are their own bloody codex, someone can just field 5 of these guys and case closed.

How do you manage to kill one, two, three, and still survive with last two that snuff out your crisis teams?

Sorry, but two s8 ap3 large blasts per knight means vaporized XV-8 teams once they land. That is armor ignoring instant kill plates... and each knight fires -two- a piece.

If I played six teams of drop fusion, perhaps I could remove five knights... but then what about every other army out there that I still have to face?

User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#132 » Sep 17 2014 12:48

The easy answer? MOAR SUITS, but that is being childish and silly, and we? are professionals.



The hard answer-you don't even try.

The enemy fields 5 knights? that's his entire army even in a big 1850 list!
Do you really need to table the opponent in order to win? spoiler: not, yo don't.
No, you need just to destroy enough of him to assure he will not destroy too much of you.


So what DO you do?
Well, it depends on your army setup, but there are multiple correct answers.

If you are like how I sometimes play and field an absurdly high portion of your army as fusion suits (I got AV heavy meta), you really do go hunting the knights, and aim at the ones that are near each other to try to cause chain reactions. (seriously, I had 8 double-fusions running at 1200 points once, the conclusion was "not enough fusion were brought to this game")

If you are a riptide spam force, you want to take down enough knights, so the riptides can jump around outside of their reach, or try to find areas of terrain where you can block assaults by finding somewhere to stand that they cant physically fit next to (that's cheesy though, will not recommend in casual play)

Going TAC? do like I recently started to do when facing the unknown and make sure that your units are all "TAC units". what does that mean? that ALL your units can, without exception, at least provide a small level of threat against any possible target. fire warriors with EMP can hurt anything, HBC riptides can hurt anything, submunnition railheads can hurt anything, etc, etc. that way the knights find themselves unable to focus on any single anti-tank threat (even fire warriors do some work, for example, an 8-man team of warriors gave me 2 hull points stripped off a knight, that's decent efficiency compared to costs-and its not off the expected result)

Other playstyles demand other answers, but the key is usually just not to go head on into the knights as a whole, but whittle them down and then play AROUND the survivors.

User avatar
Myrdin
Shas
Posts: 403

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#133 » Sep 17 2014 02:16

boomwolf wrote:The enemy fields 5 knights? that's his entire army even in a big 1850 list!
Do you really need to table the opponent in order to win? spoiler: not, yo don't.
No, you need just to destroy enough of him to assure he will not destroy too much of you.


As far as i can tell this is the best option that you have. Just as boomwolf sayes.

don't try to table him. This is a game of objectives. If you can kill two oh his, he has three. If you then have enough stuff left to secure those objectives, and stack those cards you can win on tactical objective.
I understand the bloodthirst you have - turn them all to rusty rivets - is what you would love to do. But sadly against this foe, as you see such an option is extremely limited especially in a pure Tau army.
Instead of Conqueror, being the wise general instead, crippling your opponent s force to get some breathing room and then using fast unit to secure objectives might be the best way to go.

Lets say you have 6 objectives - the moment you kill 2 of his 5 knights, he can no longer win the game just by the numbers. At best he can get tie - if you play with the objective cards, its more random, but that can benefit you as well as him, as you never know what objective the card holds.
Not that i like that type of play either, but that might be the best option......

User avatar
shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 962
Contact:

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#134 » Sep 19 2014 12:23

Not to sound terribly facetious, but why not just bring shield generators? The are terribly expensive (each double fusion suit now being 77 pts), but they are a solid way to keep crisis suits alive against the inevitable backlash. Especially considering that if you use your jump move to spread out to max coherency after hitting a knight, I'm pretty sure the ordnance template can only hit one suit.

Each suit is 40mm base, so 20mm radius + 2" = 2.787", which is more than the radius of the ordnance template, so each battle cannon, on a hit, can only target one suit. So that's (slightly less) than two saves on a unit per knight, which is one lost suit. Seems like pretty good odds to me.

Also, what about stealth suits? Many less meltas but a much higher survivability. Or having Shadowsun join a unit of suits deep striking? Piranhas with seeker missiles? Honestly, we have options, and there is no codex that is as good at killing vehicles than we are.

Lastly, and perhaps a bit of heresy, has anyone tried either Farsight, fusion blades, onager gauntlet (or all of the above) on a knight? Melee is not the best place to be, for sure, but at least they don't have that damn invuln.

Cheers!

User avatar
Myrdin
Shas
Posts: 403

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#135 » Sep 20 2014 04:30

I was thinking about the fusion blades, but the problem is same as with the Gauntlet - The Knight is i believe I4 (at least 3), which means the commander might not even survive till he gets to attack him.

You would have to give him some serious meat shield, which would be problematic as no meat shield we have or could have is fast enough as to let the commander deepstrike and then let them join in.
Yes you might try your luck and outflank 20 Kroot, then join them, but still....

The second problem with that strategy is - you cant blow him up in a single attack.... you simply cant..... well ok you CAN but the odds are extremely against you, so its more like "you most likely wont blow him up in single attack" (onager gauntlet). Being a superheavy, at a pen Roll you inflict additional D6 wounds.... thats not enough unless you soften him up before with some shooting, as the Commander has only 3 attacks, and WS4. Hitting on 4+ ain that hot.

It might be possible if you have a full unit of shield drones, and join them with an Onager Gauntlet, and Fusion Blade commander ((or Farsight and Fusion blade.... Or all three if you really want to go expensive).
The shield drones are really fast, have T4 which doesnt really matter as you will be facing a 2+ to wound shooting anyway, but have a 4+ invul, and come in good numbers.
Unless he charges, the Knight has 3 attacks. Lets say he hits with all of them, wounds with all of them. 3 drones dead. Ok. Not even counting the saves. Matthamer wise it would look completely different of course.
Then your Fusion blade, and Farsight go. They should be able to strip at least 4 wounds (though i d say they should be able to bring him down, both weapons being melta or armorbane you are bound to get at least one or two pens that can spill to D3 or D6 if lucky) before the stomp attack falls.

Thats just a theory tough. If anyone has the option and time to test it, be free to do so and please do share how it performed :)

User avatar
reconjsh
Shas
Posts: 509

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#136 » Nov 23 2014 09:58

Thats just a theory tough. If anyone has the option and time to test it, be free to do so and please do share how it performed :)


So, I tried this out yesterday. I didn't know I'd be facing a Imperial Knight when I made my list... but I've been running Commander Farsight + a Fusion Blade Commander for some time now because it's fun telling an opponent "I have close combat Tau today" and then seeing them laugh before the game and then cry after they see vehicles get torn to shreds and Commander Fusion Blade insta-deathing folks. I've also, on occasion, added Aun'shi and Commander w/ Onager also. Clearly this is a goof-around list when I do so.

Here's what happened...

Farsight (FS) [warlord, no scatter Deepstrike] + Commander w/ Fusion Blades (CFB), Shield Gen, and STIMs + 2 Shield Drones all in reserves. Also, the xv109 w/ STIMs deployed on the field.

Opponent had 1 Imperial Knight (IK).

Turn 1: I ignored the Knight entirely. the IK killed a few things.

Turn 2: Reserve roll successful. FS and CFB Deepstrike to side armor of IK into melta range and xv109 does 24" jump to flank the IK at rear armor. The xv109 also Nova's his Invuln save... thinking that surviving the IK's D weapon is long-run more important. IK Invuln shield points towards FS and CFB. I didn't have enough markerlights to put extra on the IK. Shooting phase goes poorly and I take off only two hull points. Uh oh! During the assault phase, I jump FS and CFB back and then a good distance roll allows be to put the xv109 behind them in supporting fire position.

Turn 3: IK shoots at those units and takes one HP off from CFB. IK assaults FS and CFB. Overwatch and xv109 supporting fire strip one hull point off IK (three remaining). FS goes first at i5. Dawn Blade unsuccessful. IK misses all attacks in i4! Even if it didn't, the two shield drones should have helped me survive this. CFB goes on i3 and lands every hit and PENs every roll. IK dies. Apoc template does not kill anyone. Yay!

So, that was fun.

The problem with this strategy is that you have to bring Fusion Blades which isn't a strong tournament choice... so most of the time you won't have it. On the other hand, if you are tailoring a list to fight Imperial Knights, then this combo, plus some dual Fusion Blaster teams, a PEN chip somewhere, and Commander Brightsword could really wreck 2 or 3 Knights I think.

So, Myrdin, that's what happened when I tried it out. ;)

Recon.
My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

User avatar
Myrdin
Shas
Posts: 403

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#137 » Nov 24 2014 05:52

reconjsh wrote:So, Myrdin, that's what happened when I tried it out. ;)
Recon.


Nice ! Thanks for the report Reconjsh. Its good to see my idea tested out. Soo the fusion blades are viable after all (though expensive like hell hehe), even for Knight killing.
I guess when it comes down to numbers - the fact that Farsight completely whiffed was compensated by you stripping 2 HP during the shooting phase.
Now i do wonder how this would turn out if you could sneak a PEN somewhere in there. Did O´Shovah fail his to hit rolls or his to wound rolls ?

User avatar
reconjsh
Shas
Posts: 509

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#138 » Nov 24 2014 07:46

I really love the Dawn Blade and Fusion Blade combo... I run it in about a third of my lists because it's fun and unexpected. High risk, high reward. ;)

I actually had a PEN chip available, but I made the (apparently correct) tactical decision to put the PEN in a different unit to take care of 3 Rhinos, hoping that O'Shovah and my Battlesuit Commader could get the job done against the IK.

As a side note, models in my army that do something particularly heroic (like slaying a Knight Errant and coming out unscathed) get a gold-rimmed base and a special name. This Commander was the second such model in my entire army... I named him: O'Run'Nan... loosely translated as "Commander Hidden Blade" since the enemy general was unaware of the lethality of the Fusion Blade.

Did O´Shovah fail his to hit rolls or his to wound rolls ?


Farsight failed all of his to-hit rolls. All 1's and 2's.

I think what I'm going to do next is run some simulations on my computer to see how effective Commander Farsight and Fusion Blade Commander + two shield drones will be. That shouldn't be hard to run a few times and get less anecdotal evidence for this combo.

Recon.
Last edited by reconjsh on Nov 24 2014 12:59, edited 3 times in total.
My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

User avatar
reconjsh
Shas
Posts: 509

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#139 » Nov 24 2014 10:59

I tried running some numbers for a combo of Farsight and Fusion Blade Commander (w/ Shield Generator) + two shield drones (349 points) vs. an Imperial Knight (375 points). I wanted to compare even points... obviously we could throw 1,000 points on an IK and kill it reliably.

I'd very much appreciate someone else running the numbers. I'm new to stats, so hopefully I got this correct.

EDIT: Jochmann checked the math in a later post, so I deleted it here. See next page of thread.

Synthesis/Expectations: Farsight can be expected to remove one hull point. Imperial Knight will generally remove 1-2 shield drone with its Chainsword. Commander w/ Fusion Blades can be expected to remove 1-2 hull points. Imperial Knight will stomp and generally remove one more shield drone or cause a wound.

So, the keys to this combo are:
1) softening the IK first. These numbers are close combat only.
2) Shield Generators and Shield Drones for ablative wounds.
3) There's a clear advantage charging the IK instead of waiting to be charged, when only close combat is considered.

I figure, run this with an xv109 and you can pretty much kill a Knight with confidence, especially with some PEN / Markerlight support.

Can someone confirm this? What is everyone's thoughts on this combo against an IK?

Recon.
Last edited by reconjsh on Nov 25 2014 01:31, edited 4 times in total.
My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

User avatar
Jochmann
Shas'Ui
Posts: 413
Contact:

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#140 » Nov 24 2014 01:34

reconjsh wrote:Initiative 4:
Imperial Knight vs. Invulnerable Save - 0.625 "D3" Unsaved Wounds, 6.944% chance of Remove from play


That's not correct. As D-Weapons are treated as having S10 for the purpose of instant death, it is a 62.5% chance of Remove from play - if it is not hitting the drones. I will check your numbers later today, including the drones. First, I have to do my math-homework, though...

User avatar
reconjsh
Shas
Posts: 509

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#141 » Nov 24 2014 01:41

Thanks!!! Looking forward to seeing how close I am. ;)

Yes, you're right... I removed that % number. :evil:

Recon.
My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 743

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#142 » Nov 24 2014 03:14

Jochmann wrote:
reconjsh wrote:Initiative 4:
Imperial Knight vs. Invulnerable Save - 0.625 "D3" Unsaved Wounds, 6.944% chance of Remove from play


That's not correct. As D-Weapons are treated as having S10 for the purpose of instant death, it is a 62.5% chance of Remove from play - if it is not hitting the drones. I will check your numbers later today, including the drones. First, I have to do my math-homework, though...


I think this is the reason why adding a bodyguard to the unit is so valuable - s/he can bring along some more shield drones and all those drones then auto-succeed on their LoS attempts. Now this does make the unit more expensive than a single Knight but I would probably do most of my damage to a single knight with shooting - having a unit capable of dealing with multiple Knights over the duration of the game looks like a decent investment.

Not to open an old can of worms but by very literal RAW the bodyguard can bring along the PEN and even an Onager Gauntlet - although keeping it cheap so you can sacrifice him/her to keep one of the HQ alive is a perfectly valid option.

It is also worth bearing in mind that having the commander as your warlord may be a good option here as this is not all about the perfect deep-strike. A couple of the FSE warlord traits would be relevant and useful - as might be some of the personal traits.

User avatar
Jochmann
Shas'Ui
Posts: 413
Contact:

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#143 » Nov 24 2014 05:31

Jochmann wrote:First, I have to do my math-homework, though...

Made a mistake. It was tough, not though. Halfway done yet, doing the rest tomorrow morning. In the afternoon/evening I'll then do the "fun"math, my apologies.

User avatar
Jochmann
Shas'Ui
Posts: 413
Contact:

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#144 » Nov 25 2014 11:51

So, the math is done:

Assumptions: As I am trying to emulate how much damage is inflicted, I weigh the likeliness of hits with the amount of hits. Neither is attacking and the unit consists of Commander Farsight, a Fusionblade Commander and two Shield drones vs. a regular (read non-FW) Imperial Knight.

1. Farsight attacks:
4 attacks x 2/3 chance to hit (conveniently the number of hits negates the chance potential, so this easy formula works) x 1/6 (glancing hit)
+ 4 x 2/3 x 5/12 x 5/6 (penetrating hit without explodes)
+ 4 x 2/3 x 5/12 x 1/6 x 2,5 (penetrating with explodes)
= 96/216 + 200/216 + 100/216 = 396/216
= 1,833 points of damage
2. Knight attacks:
3 attacks x 2/3 (the drones low WS) x 5/6 x 1/2 (shield save)
30/36 = 0,8 wounds
3. Fusionmander attacks
4 x 1/2 x 1/9 (glancing hit)
+ 4 x 1/2 x 13/18 x 5/6 (penetrating hit without explodes)
+ 4 x 1/2 x 13/18 x 1/6 x 2,5
= 48/216 + 260/216 + 180/216 = 488/216
= 2,25 points of damage
4. Knight stomps:
1/6 chance of total annihilation
2/3 x 4 x 5/6 x 1/2 (drones save) = 1,111

Total:
- 2 drones dead + 17% likeliness of all Tau annihilated
- 4 Hullpoints destroyed

Conclusion: After one turn, both drones will likely be destroyed and with a 17% chance the whole unit will be gone without any saves.
The Knight will have lost 2/3 of his hull points and Farsight will most likely finish him the next turn, if he wasn't stomped to a fine paste on the ground.
It seems to be a valid tactic to engage a Knight with both Farsight and a Blademander, only one of them won't do it. Better than Farsight would be Brightblade plus a Blademander, but the difference isn't that big. If the Tau had attacked, averagely a fifth hullpoint would be gone, but the Knight would survive. If the Knight had attacked, one of the Commanders would be dead, too, so beware of charging Knights.

User avatar
Vay
Shas'Ui
Posts: 879

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#145 » Nov 25 2014 01:17

Having killed a few knights, what I find works:

Riptide
Deathrain Team
Rest of army

Your Riptide presents the forward element and at distance engages the the Knight. Your army hides and evades the knights fire and keeps about its day winning the war.
Your deathrain team is positioned to flank or Deepstrike.

Melee is where this monster gets its points back. NEVER let that happen.

He is also often played as "the spear" of a force, so side flanking is fairly easy.

Base size alone makes him check for across field movement for most of his moves, you have 6 Plus JSJ for your forces.

I have also had some effect with 2 sky rays/ 2 hammerheads. Rays on flank (like Deathrains) and the Hammers split up but on point. The invuln sucks, but rail rounds can score some sick damage fast. And at mid field, 2 full seeker batteries finish the job if the hammers did not. Dpods and cover render most of its fire useless.
Shas'O Kais Vay Shone’nan

User avatar
reconjsh
Shas
Posts: 509

Re: Imperial Knights - A new foe on the horizon...

Post#146 » Nov 25 2014 01:21

Thanks! Told ya I stunk at stats. I see now that I messed up Farsight's Weapon Skill. I went back and edited my post and referenced your numbers instead.

So, seems like a good combo, especially since you should get at least one shooting phase prior to a charge. I like it because it's even points... ~370 each. And, if you win, you get to go attack something else. :)

Vay - I was just sharing a combo that happened to work me and then posited that it was a sound tactic. Seems like it might be with proper setup.

I'm going to try this out more, maybe doing some simulations by myself instead of wasting an afternoon playing someone else to just try out a failed idea.

Recon.
My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

Return to “Engaging the Alien”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest