How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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gr1m_dan
Shas
Posts: 333

How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#1 » Jun 28 2014 06:20

Hey guys,

One of my regular opponents has recently started using this list (or there abouts, I've not played him yet but he's had 5 games in our small group and has hammered everyone)

Vanquisher HQ (+1 extra Van I think)

Vet + Chimera x 2

Hyrda

Vendetta

Valkyrie

Vulture

Baneblade Variant that has Vulcan Bolter and can transport 40 guys (or some variant depending how he feels)

Imperial Knight

---

If I list tailor I THINK I could have him but it would require me to use my Tigershark AX-1-0 and maybe go unbound for massive fusion Crisis spam and possibly Hammerhead (Longstrike!) / Skyray spam. If I can go 2nd or at least bring the Tigershark on 2nd I'll be able to either nail a tank, or a flyer pretty quickly (using Skyray Markerlights for remove jink)

Primary targets 1st turn would be the Hyrda / Knight then start chipping away at the Vanquishers ASAP.

I've seen this list in action and non of our group has taken any Super-heavies or list tailored and have been beaten quite soundly just down to not being able to field enough anti-air AND anti-armour but I think we could do it via Skyrays and mass Fusion.

It's getting to the point the rest of my group are pretty much refusing to play him until I do because I'm the only one who can beat him but working at the gaming store I just don't get much time anymore. Time for this to change and to put him back in his place...

What tactics/list ideas would my fellow Commanders advise?
The Shadow that strikes, he that walks unseen

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samuraijaques
Shas
Posts: 40

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#2 » Jun 28 2014 07:56

Farsight enclaves as either your primary force or as allies will allow you to field fusion equipped crisis suits in your troop slots and gives you access to the fusion blade which is a formidable anti armor weapon. Decked out broadsides with velocity trackers and an attached support commander make short work of basically any flyers in the game. Pepper in some markerlight support and you would have a good start to a list that could beat his.

Hope it helps. Cheers

Colhd
Shas
Posts: 43

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#3 » Jun 28 2014 08:43

I would go with fielding quantity over quality, it will throw him for a loop if nothing else. He'll never epect him and will possible take him to long to recover, and hopefully its too late by then.
By that I mean have atleast 3 or 4 full fire warriors teams all with emp grenades that will easily take out all his vehicles. Then you have a few ranges support fire from cover, possible a commander with at least drone controller and counterfire def leading a full sniper team. Also may want to have some stealth suits to distact him while fire warriors move in or to get in shots from behind while he deals with the fire warriors. Aside from that own the skys to hammer at him troops.
Please let me know what you think, and I left a lot open for you fill in with your play style.

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samuraijaques
Shas
Posts: 40

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#4 » Jun 28 2014 09:12

Colhd wrote:I would go with fielding quantity over quality, it will throw him for a loop if nothing else. He'll never epect him and will possible take him to long to recover, and hopefully its too late by then.
By that I mean have atleast 3 or 4 full fire warriors teams all with emp grenades that will easily take out all his vehicles. Then you have a few ranges support fire from cover, possible a commander with at least drone controller and counterfire def leading a full sniper team. Also may want to have some stealth suits to distact him while fire warriors move in or to get in shots from behind while he deals with the fire warriors. Aside from that own the skys to hammer at him troops.
Please let me know what you think, and I left a lot open for you fill in with your play style.


The problem with that is his opponent's list is very well suited to taking out lots of models with prodigious use of blast templates. Additionally, firewarriors using emp grenades are going to have a tough time getting into assault range without turning into a fine blue paste thanks to his opponents massive amount of firepower. Plus, firewarriors are never in a million years going to take out an imperial knight. Sure he'll never expect it but it's also unlikely to work anyway.

Also, why would you give a commander a drone controller if he is just going to sit in a sniper team? The spotters already have BS5 and a drone controller. I could see putting a commander in there for MSSS or C&C support though. But sniper teams really aren't going to do much against all that heavy armor. And their BS5 is useless against flyers.

You might consider editing your posts before submitting them.

Colhd
Shas
Posts: 43

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#5 » Jun 28 2014 09:34

I'm aware of what I posted. I did it against a friend whom fielded one. I was able to have at least 1 team out of his line of sight at all times and he seemed more worried about my stealth suits than my fire warriors for they carried pulse carbines (so I can have them shoot and move) and he wasn't to worried. That was until 8 EMP were thrown it after being marked my sniper team, 6 hit.
My game was only 1000 points so I only had 3 teams but before I even took out knight I had killed 2 units. I nearly had him tabled when the game ended. I may have also been lucky with terrian. And unless I'm misreading the use of marker light the sniper drones only have BS 2. The markerlights from the marksmen don't help the snipers cause the rule states "units cannot use counters from thier own markerlights".

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samuraijaques
Shas
Posts: 40

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#6 » Jun 28 2014 09:50

I'm sorry man, That isn't what I meant. I was just saying that it's kind of hard to understand what you are trying to say. I was suggesting you edit the grammar not the content. I hope no offense was taken. So am I correct in my understanding that you killed an imperial knight with emp armed firewarriors? If so that either reflects amazing strategy and even more amazing rolls on your part or a complete lack of understanding of your army list by your opponent.

Sniper drones are BS5 as long as the firesight marksman is alive because he has BS5 and a drone controller. You are correct though, the drones cannot benefit from his markerlight.

Cheers.

Colhd
Shas
Posts: 43

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#7 » Jun 28 2014 10:04

I apolgize for my bad grammer, I have always been bad. Being on a community like this causing me to write more thus improving my grammer. I am more of a math person.
The Commander I guess is more of personal use, I have found my enemies don't like me using a sniper team thus try to take them out first, so Comd as a Ravens mostly ups the units survivability making it easier to make up thier points. My placement of the team usually causes me to lose a few and marksmen as they are normally closer to front to maximize usage of weapons, thus they die sooner. Once team is down and enough to make moral checks (also now easier to pass) the drones still get the boost to BS score. Also the counterfire def really helps with support fire.

Yes I did defeat a knight with this statgey. My enemy wanted to try it out so it was a friendly match, he had told me that he was fielding an imperial knight and didn't want full details of my list. But in his error he forgot that haywire grenades could be thrown. And yes I did have quite a few lucky rolls and he had gotten quite a few misses (1's) with his knights weapons. I wish I had taken good notes of the battle to post up.
Again sorry if I was confusing, I promise I'll explain my thoughts and information better so to prevent misunderstandings.

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gr1m_dan
Shas
Posts: 333

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#8 » Jun 29 2014 01:39

Interesting thoughts guys and much appreciated as always.

The EMP Commando team was actually a method I was thinking about. Given that our Devilfish are very survivable now I was going to run 2 or 3 teams of 10 in Devilfish to try and co-ordinate a massive EMP strike on the super-heavy or Knight. Is throwing a grenade still limited to one model in the shooting phase? I haven't checked the actual throwing rule since getting 7th.

Against a Knight it can quite effective as you'll loose probably 2 guys on average from his attacks which would leave between 8 and 10 guys to hit on 4's then glance on 2's with no Inv save. On paper the EMPs are probably the best way for us to kill a knight but it's the application and execution that's hard BUT one that could play in our favour as most Knight players use them aggressively. If they know we have EMP on all troops it could make them think twice about just rushing in.

I am pretty tempted with VT Broadsides just for a little bit more reliability on my Skyfire. The only trouble is that I'd miss out on the skyfire markerlights which have been amazingly powerful in previous games against him. Managed to take a Vendetta out from behind with Stealth suits due to getting a couple of Markerlights from a Skyray.

I guess it's the shock and awe of the list that is catching my friends out and the fact they don't run hard lists, we generally go for fun but this guy has taken it a bit far putting a super heavy and a knight plus 3 flyers in the list. Against a TAC this list is going to be pretty hard.
The Shadow that strikes, he that walks unseen

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Tem
Shas
Posts: 173

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#9 » Jun 29 2014 02:24

That isn't a nice AM list. The options I can think for winning against that list are:

1-Mass Deepstike with maximum Fusion Blasters. You'll still need to be able to deal with the Flyers.

2-Tau Area Denial Nodes, plural. There is a topic on this in the Rules & FAQ subforum. Each is an stationary AV12 6 Hull point Superheavy with a twin-linked Railgun and a neat rule that allows them to up their weapon S to Destroyer if they combine fire on the same target and 2 or more hit.

3-Don't play his game. Play something different like one of the Farsight Enclave Altar of War missions. Mont'ka allows you to reroll reserve rolls and Deepstrike Scatter. Way of the Broken Blade can cost him victory points for spreading out. Way of the Short Blade only awards victory point for units killed in assault or overwatch and once his Knight is gone, a properly built Farsight Enclave army should be quite capable of beating AM vehicles to death, given that he doesn't have a whole lot of Guardsmen to screen and the characters to make them hang around.

I don't think Fire Warriors with EMP grenades will work, at least not more than once, because only the Knight (and perhaps the Baneblade) wants to be close enough for them to be effective and we don't have the assault vehicles.

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samuraijaques
Shas
Posts: 40

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#10 » Jun 29 2014 02:37

Another thing to consider is that those firewarriors have to pass a LD test before they start throwing those grenades in cc thanks to the fear rule that all imperial knights have. If they fail, which they will slightly less than half the time, they will be hitting on 5's meaning your 8 remaining fire warriors will only land 2.6 hits on average. Half of those will glance.

Each one of those EMP commando units is costing you 190pts and netting you, on average, 2-4 glances with the possibility of a penetrating hit before getting literally stomped to death when the knight's I1 attacks come around. And that is all contingent on them actually making it into charge range. If you were to run 3 of these squads you would be looking at 570pts that would only bring down the knight if they all made it into charge range. The knight only costs 370-375pts.

It's always hard to decide when to list tailor. I usually try and avoid it in all but the most extreme of circumstances. Sometimes there really just isn't any other way and I feel like this is one of those times. Crush him into the dirt, for the greater good. Bonus points if you actually yell that when you beat him.

Hope it helps, cheers

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nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 763

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#11 » Jun 29 2014 02:00

Against such a mech-heavy list what you need is the Tank Hunters rule on as many hard-hitting units as possible.

1. Firebase Support Cadre. Place VT on at least some of the Broadsides. For the riptide the best combo might be HBC + FB with ECPA to go with the VT and EWO.

2. Longstrike in a Hammerhead. Usually he would be the primary target but with all those flyers coming and all those VT Broadsides you can begin to give the AM player some difficult target priority decisions.

3. Deep striking fusion crisis. Plenty of them, so you very likely want to have a Farsight Enclaves detachment in there. Missile pods are not useless if you can get round the flanks and they will clear out the veteran squads pretty quickly once you pop open the Chimera.

4. You have at least one Riptide if you go with option 1 and you quite probably want at least another. I never have much luck with the HBC without an ECPA and would take the IA but your experience might be different.

5. A fusion blades commander is not a bad idea - that one suit can seriously mess up a baneblade if the AM target all those other priority targets first. Farsight is also not a terrible choice, he can put a unit right where you want it and if ignored can hurt the tanks in CC.

6. A skyray would not hurt if you have the points spare. Personally I would probably just go for more fusion crisis - the Broadsides and Riptides are then the primary anti-air.

Keeping your markerlight sources alive will be hard whatever they are, multiple small units might be your best option against an opponent with big guns but not many of them.

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gr1m_dan
Shas
Posts: 333

Re: How to deal with this AM List @ 1850

Post#12 » Jul 01 2014 06:38

@Nic

Some good advice there and definitely along my lines of play. I was thinking of the Firesupport formation. Simply for the tank hunters rule. Against his flyers that will be excellent. The tank hunter Riptide will act as bait and try and pull his Knights away from my fragile stuff. He usually just charges it straight forward, he's very easy to predict but the list he uses is tough enough to be predictable. With enough units I'll be able to get a side with no shield I hope!

Longstrike was a forgone conclusion straight away. He's just fantastic against AM. He's good as it is but having the re-roll misses really helps to soften the blow when you roll a 1 to hit. I'd use him to target the vehicles with no saves first. Vanquisher HQ then possibly Hyrda for an easy quick kill and then the Knight.

Looks like dropping the Tigershark AX-1-0 would be a much better tactic and then simply out numbering him with anti-tank.

Farsight Codex will be ordered ASAP as I've wanted it for ages but it seems especially good against AM with this amount of armour.
The Shadow that strikes, he that walks unseen

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