Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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boomwolf
Shas'La
Posts: 1688

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#21 » Jun 19 2015 02:42

It's not a 1 turn 1 trick pony though, the abilities of the formation last all game long.

Forgot the firebase for a moment. But that's a gun line formation. If I'm forced to gun line, I might as well retire. I despise that army type.

Spamming EWO everywhere WILL be the bane of this formation, true, but that only works when you know it's coming. We better get some new tools for mobile armies in the upcoming codex, or we will be relegated to boring gun line...

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modelglue
Kor'El
Posts: 1252

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#22 » Jun 19 2015 05:02

boomwolf wrote:...I might as well retire.

Oh, come on! You don't mean that do you? :P

boomwolf wrote: We better get some new tools for mobile armies in the upcoming codex, or we will be relegated to boring gun line...

While yes, some gamers already do love this play style, I think with a touch of ingenuity we'll see lots of counters to this and maybe we already have a defensive strategy formed within this very thread? :fear:

I suppose my point is that there is no real reason to panic or be negative unless you really just want to complain at people. Considering all the heat we got when the Riptide and other new models/rules in the rage showed up, I would like to think that we as a group are above it all and can cope with any situation. In fact, I get the feeling this thread could generate a stickied Tactica article.

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Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1159

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#23 » Jun 19 2015 08:43

This formation has started me on re-thinking some of my recent alterations to my lists. I have been favoring the Sunforge-D over of the Burning Eye-D as a means of dealing with those Gargantuan Creatures and Imperial Knights. Plus Feel No Pain gets handed out like candy and the S8 had better odds of canceling that out. Less effective now that T5 is so easy to achieve these days too :(
I also shied away from the Firebase Support Cadre because I did not want to use Broadsides (not mobile enough).

Now, however, there is no denying the power of Plasma Rifles w/ EWO against the almost certain rise of the Drop Pod army. Riptide w/ IA and the Y'vahra were my anit-deep strike up until now but I am seriously considering adding at least one unit of Broadsides w/ PR and EWO. Deep Strike defense is even more important now, and Broadsides are now the most efficient way to spam S7 and field EWO Plasma. Maybe my Burning Eye team will make a comeback carrying EWO instead of the ATS...

In my mind you need at least a few things to defend against Deep Strike:
    1-Interceptor. This means only battlesuits will work
    2-AP2. Deep Strikers are usually heavily armoured. If they aren't then Broadsides become even more attractive.
    3-Anything you use as Deep Strike defense needs to be fairly accurate without markerlight support.
    4-Decent Range. You can't assume the enemy will always Deep Strike within 12" but if you have a good idea what his target is you can deploy in such a way that he must drop in range or at a less optimal spot. Even so, you need at least 18-24" to be reasonably sure you'll be in range.

Just looking at these things, Broadsides and Iontides fit the bill perfectly. The Iontide is less reliable in terms of accuracy, but has the opportunity to wipe an entire enemy assault squad in one shot. The Broadsides can put more than a few missile pod wounds on the targets at a good range, with some plasma to add some assured pain.
The mobility of the Broadsides is usually an issue, but against Drop Pods it doesn't matter at all. The enemy will be coming to you, and most likely will intentionally land within line of sight. Plus, if you burn all your weapons on Overwatch, your Broadsides and Riptides are free to redeploy to the max in your next turn.

I don't think we can bring enough EWO to completely neuter a full-on Drop Pod assault, but I think we can still bring enough to throw some wrenches into his plans. Especially if you can figure out which units he plans to do all the heavy lifting with.

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ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
Posts: 742

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#24 » Jun 19 2015 08:52

Very interesting formation!, I can definatly see the fluff appeal. Though, I'd have preferred an approach using high amounts of basic Space Marines, instead of the more elitist Devastators/Ass. Marines.


Not sure I like the "Assaulting after Reserve" for the Ass.Marines. This leaves for game strategies that involve wiping out/tarpitting your opponent before he could even play a decent turn. Pinning on 3d6 makes this even worse.
Though I'm still optimistic on our chances when fighting one of these "drop pod assaults", Tau especially, have easy acces to Intercept on everything that matters, and Supporting fire, wich no other Race has acces to.

That Said, having to face a Marine list kitted with as many of these formations as possible, I doubt anyone will survive past turn 1. Except maybe when running a pure Broadside list. Either way, we won't have to sit in a boring game for very long :).


Overall, not nearly as bad as the 7th Eldar Codex?


-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

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shasocastris
Shas'Vre
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#25 » Jun 19 2015 09:12

It occurs to me that we could also take an allied landspeeder storm. That jamming beacon (4d6 scatter for DS within 12") would laugh at this formation.

And yes, while the assaulting after DSing is painful, it is surprisingly hard to do. I used to play a lot of planetstrike in 5th ed, where this in fact was a thing. Anyone could deep strike, and those that could already do it could assault the turn they arrived. Actually getting in range to do that is not trivial. One has to be close enough to charge but far enough away that a bad scatter won't send the unit into reserve (or worse). It's a fine balance to strike and there is a 50/50 chance of it working. It will be slightly better since the marines can re-roll the charge, but not by much.

I also thought of something funny. We know that charging into cover is -2 to the range. Why not bubble wrap with pathfinders that have a grav drone? Make the assault marines charge at -4? An expensive solution, to be sure, but I can see it greatly annoying devastators who would rather shoot at something else and the assault marines who probably won't be able to charge because of these guys. "Oh, you need an 11 to charge? You get a re-roll? You still failed? And now I get to blow you're brains out." Oh, and assault marines don't have move through cover, so the bubble wrap should always be in cover.

Here is the question that I think needs answered. If we have to choose who we interceptor, the assault squad or the devs, which do we pick? I'm thinking devastators, if only because that stupid suppression ability is how the assault marines get have their cool tricks. Plus being pinned is no fun. And if done right, the assault marines are going to kill the bubble wrap, not whatever is within 24-48".

Cheers!

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Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1159

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#26 » Jun 19 2015 09:25

shasocastris wrote:Here is the question that I think needs answered. If we have to choose who we interceptor, the assault squad or the devs, which do we pick? I'm thinking devastators, if only because that stupid suppression ability is how the assault marines get have their cool tricks. Plus being pinned is no fun. And if done right, the assault marines are going to kill the bubble wrap, not whatever is within 24-48".
I agree. The Devastators are the key to this formation. How your opponent kits them out will bely how he intends to use the formation. The Assault Marines are far from the reliable source for killing stuff on the arrival turn, since (as you point out) they require extra luck on the drop and charge. Plus close combat, as a whole, is less killy.

That said, the Assault Marines are more versatile since they can engage Anything as long as they have melta bombs and a power fist. I think you have to look at what is going to be the biggest problem for your army in the long run. The Devs may cause more damage, left alone, but the Assault Marines can tie stuff up and can relocate/threaten objectives better. Remember that the Devs are only relentless on the turn they arrive while the jumpers can use their packs in both movement/assault for the entire game.

I know that I will not be able to resist dropping a two large Ion blasts on a couple closely packed units of Assault Marines. Imagine the rage quit... :::(

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shasocastris
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#27 » Jun 19 2015 11:21

Da Skyman wrote:Plus close combat, as a whole, is less killy.

Eh, it is still as killy as ever. The ability to run down squads was always crazy. I think it is more that shooting is now up to par with it, given better shooting rules and overwatch.

Da Skyman wrote:That said, the Assault Marines are more versatile since they can engage Anything as long as they have melta bombs and a power fist. I think you have to look at what is going to be the biggest problem for your army in the long run. The Devs may cause more damage, left alone, but the Assault Marines can tie stuff up and can relocate/threaten objectives better. Remember that the Devs are only relentless on the turn they arrive while the jumpers can use their packs in both movement/assault for the entire game.

Those are good points. I suppose the target selection will also depend on scatter and the general movement of the opponent. People forget that interceptor happens at the end of the phase, and so you can see what they are doing before decided which of their newly arrived friends to blow up.

Da Skyman wrote:I know that I will not be able to resist dropping a two large Ion blasts on a couple closely packed units of Assault Marines. Imagine the rage quit... :::(

I don't have to imagine it ;)

On a more constructive note, I think general target priority would be anything with blast (and templates?) and interceptor (riptides, a cyclic ion blaster?) would target the nicely clumped up assault marines while broadsides would engage the more spread out devastators.

I almost want to take a bunch of crisis suits with TL flamer and EWO and bait the assault squads. "Oh you came in with 250 points worth of toys? Well take 20 saves. And take 5 more when you charge."

I was also pondering something. How well will the combined devastator salvo/assault squad charge work in practice? I mean, devastators are shooting at something only to pin them? Don't devastators generally try to kill what they shoot? Of course, cover is a factor, but I can't help but imagine that the whole 'boo!' factor is not quite as bad as it is. Either the devastators kill the target of the assault squad (which leaves the assault squad hanging out in the breeze) or the devastators cripple the target, meaning the assault squad will finish said unit and still be in the middle of nowhere (maybe in cover?).

At any rate, this formation makes me not at all bothered to take the firebase support cadre and a pair of y'vahras. "Oh you dropped in 4 units, two of which got too close for their own good? Mistake..."

Cheers!

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ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
Posts: 742

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#28 » Jun 19 2015 12:32

There is ofcourse the tactic of having the devastators go after melee/monster units, and have the Assault squads charge/tarpit anything that has a lot of guns.
Not too much of a problem, since all we tau have is lots of guns, but the 3d6 pinning could be very painfull if targeted correctly on nearby Supporting Fire units.
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

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Myrdin
Shas
Posts: 403

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#29 » Jun 19 2015 12:55

Cant the Devastators Split fire ? In such case they could potentially pin multiple units, and deny overwatch - that pretty much negates anything that they want.

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Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#30 » Jun 19 2015 01:01

At the very least the devs can combat squad to double their pinning power.

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