Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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boomwolf
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#21 » Jun 19 2015 02:42

It's not a 1 turn 1 trick pony though, the abilities of the formation last all game long.

Forgot the firebase for a moment. But that's a gun line formation. If I'm forced to gun line, I might as well retire. I despise that army type.

Spamming EWO everywhere WILL be the bane of this formation, true, but that only works when you know it's coming. We better get some new tools for mobile armies in the upcoming codex, or we will be relegated to boring gun line...

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MODELGLUE Eio'Y
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#22 » Jun 19 2015 05:02

boomwolf wrote:...I might as well retire.

Oh, come on! You don't mean that do you? :P

boomwolf wrote: We better get some new tools for mobile armies in the upcoming codex, or we will be relegated to boring gun line...

While yes, some gamers already do love this play style, I think with a touch of ingenuity we'll see lots of counters to this and maybe we already have a defensive strategy formed within this very thread? :fear:

I suppose my point is that there is no real reason to panic or be negative unless you really just want to complain at people. Considering all the heat we got when the Riptide and other new models/rules in the rage showed up, I would like to think that we as a group are above it all and can cope with any situation. In fact, I get the feeling this thread could generate a stickied Tactica article.

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#23 » Jun 19 2015 08:43

This formation has started me on re-thinking some of my recent alterations to my lists. I have been favoring the Sunforge-D over of the Burning Eye-D as a means of dealing with those Gargantuan Creatures and Imperial Knights. Plus Feel No Pain gets handed out like candy and the S8 had better odds of canceling that out. Less effective now that T5 is so easy to achieve these days too :(
I also shied away from the Firebase Support Cadre because I did not want to use Broadsides (not mobile enough).

Now, however, there is no denying the power of Plasma Rifles w/ EWO against the almost certain rise of the Drop Pod army. Riptide w/ IA and the Y'vahra were my anit-deep strike up until now but I am seriously considering adding at least one unit of Broadsides w/ PR and EWO. Deep Strike defense is even more important now, and Broadsides are now the most efficient way to spam S7 and field EWO Plasma. Maybe my Burning Eye team will make a comeback carrying EWO instead of the ATS...

In my mind you need at least a few things to defend against Deep Strike:
    1-Interceptor. This means only battlesuits will work
    2-AP2. Deep Strikers are usually heavily armoured. If they aren't then Broadsides become even more attractive.
    3-Anything you use as Deep Strike defense needs to be fairly accurate without markerlight support.
    4-Decent Range. You can't assume the enemy will always Deep Strike within 12" but if you have a good idea what his target is you can deploy in such a way that he must drop in range or at a less optimal spot. Even so, you need at least 18-24" to be reasonably sure you'll be in range.

Just looking at these things, Broadsides and Iontides fit the bill perfectly. The Iontide is less reliable in terms of accuracy, but has the opportunity to wipe an entire enemy assault squad in one shot. The Broadsides can put more than a few missile pod wounds on the targets at a good range, with some plasma to add some assured pain.
The mobility of the Broadsides is usually an issue, but against Drop Pods it doesn't matter at all. The enemy will be coming to you, and most likely will intentionally land within line of sight. Plus, if you burn all your weapons on Overwatch, your Broadsides and Riptides are free to redeploy to the max in your next turn.

I don't think we can bring enough EWO to completely neuter a full-on Drop Pod assault, but I think we can still bring enough to throw some wrenches into his plans. Especially if you can figure out which units he plans to do all the heavy lifting with.

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#24 » Jun 19 2015 08:52

Very interesting formation!, I can definatly see the fluff appeal. Though, I'd have preferred an approach using high amounts of basic Space Marines, instead of the more elitist Devastators/Ass. Marines.


Not sure I like the "Assaulting after Reserve" for the Ass.Marines. This leaves for game strategies that involve wiping out/tarpitting your opponent before he could even play a decent turn. Pinning on 3d6 makes this even worse.
Though I'm still optimistic on our chances when fighting one of these "drop pod assaults", Tau especially, have easy acces to Intercept on everything that matters, and Supporting fire, wich no other Race has acces to.

That Said, having to face a Marine list kitted with as many of these formations as possible, I doubt anyone will survive past turn 1. Except maybe when running a pure Broadside list. Either way, we won't have to sit in a boring game for very long :).


Overall, not nearly as bad as the 7th Eldar Codex?


-Derp
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shasocastris
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#25 » Jun 19 2015 09:12

It occurs to me that we could also take an allied landspeeder storm. That jamming beacon (4d6 scatter for DS within 12") would laugh at this formation.

And yes, while the assaulting after DSing is painful, it is surprisingly hard to do. I used to play a lot of planetstrike in 5th ed, where this in fact was a thing. Anyone could deep strike, and those that could already do it could assault the turn they arrived. Actually getting in range to do that is not trivial. One has to be close enough to charge but far enough away that a bad scatter won't send the unit into reserve (or worse). It's a fine balance to strike and there is a 50/50 chance of it working. It will be slightly better since the marines can re-roll the charge, but not by much.

I also thought of something funny. We know that charging into cover is -2 to the range. Why not bubble wrap with pathfinders that have a grav drone? Make the assault marines charge at -4? An expensive solution, to be sure, but I can see it greatly annoying devastators who would rather shoot at something else and the assault marines who probably won't be able to charge because of these guys. "Oh, you need an 11 to charge? You get a re-roll? You still failed? And now I get to blow you're brains out." Oh, and assault marines don't have move through cover, so the bubble wrap should always be in cover.

Here is the question that I think needs answered. If we have to choose who we interceptor, the assault squad or the devs, which do we pick? I'm thinking devastators, if only because that stupid suppression ability is how the assault marines get have their cool tricks. Plus being pinned is no fun. And if done right, the assault marines are going to kill the bubble wrap, not whatever is within 24-48".

Cheers!

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#26 » Jun 19 2015 09:25

shasocastris wrote:Here is the question that I think needs answered. If we have to choose who we interceptor, the assault squad or the devs, which do we pick? I'm thinking devastators, if only because that stupid suppression ability is how the assault marines get have their cool tricks. Plus being pinned is no fun. And if done right, the assault marines are going to kill the bubble wrap, not whatever is within 24-48".
I agree. The Devastators are the key to this formation. How your opponent kits them out will bely how he intends to use the formation. The Assault Marines are far from the reliable source for killing stuff on the arrival turn, since (as you point out) they require extra luck on the drop and charge. Plus close combat, as a whole, is less killy.

That said, the Assault Marines are more versatile since they can engage Anything as long as they have melta bombs and a power fist. I think you have to look at what is going to be the biggest problem for your army in the long run. The Devs may cause more damage, left alone, but the Assault Marines can tie stuff up and can relocate/threaten objectives better. Remember that the Devs are only relentless on the turn they arrive while the jumpers can use their packs in both movement/assault for the entire game.

I know that I will not be able to resist dropping a two large Ion blasts on a couple closely packed units of Assault Marines. Imagine the rage quit... :::(

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shasocastris
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#27 » Jun 19 2015 11:21

Da Skyman wrote:Plus close combat, as a whole, is less killy.

Eh, it is still as killy as ever. The ability to run down squads was always crazy. I think it is more that shooting is now up to par with it, given better shooting rules and overwatch.

Da Skyman wrote:That said, the Assault Marines are more versatile since they can engage Anything as long as they have melta bombs and a power fist. I think you have to look at what is going to be the biggest problem for your army in the long run. The Devs may cause more damage, left alone, but the Assault Marines can tie stuff up and can relocate/threaten objectives better. Remember that the Devs are only relentless on the turn they arrive while the jumpers can use their packs in both movement/assault for the entire game.

Those are good points. I suppose the target selection will also depend on scatter and the general movement of the opponent. People forget that interceptor happens at the end of the phase, and so you can see what they are doing before decided which of their newly arrived friends to blow up.

Da Skyman wrote:I know that I will not be able to resist dropping a two large Ion blasts on a couple closely packed units of Assault Marines. Imagine the rage quit... :::(

I don't have to imagine it ;)

On a more constructive note, I think general target priority would be anything with blast (and templates?) and interceptor (riptides, a cyclic ion blaster?) would target the nicely clumped up assault marines while broadsides would engage the more spread out devastators.

I almost want to take a bunch of crisis suits with TL flamer and EWO and bait the assault squads. "Oh you came in with 250 points worth of toys? Well take 20 saves. And take 5 more when you charge."

I was also pondering something. How well will the combined devastator salvo/assault squad charge work in practice? I mean, devastators are shooting at something only to pin them? Don't devastators generally try to kill what they shoot? Of course, cover is a factor, but I can't help but imagine that the whole 'boo!' factor is not quite as bad as it is. Either the devastators kill the target of the assault squad (which leaves the assault squad hanging out in the breeze) or the devastators cripple the target, meaning the assault squad will finish said unit and still be in the middle of nowhere (maybe in cover?).

At any rate, this formation makes me not at all bothered to take the firebase support cadre and a pair of y'vahras. "Oh you dropped in 4 units, two of which got too close for their own good? Mistake..."

Cheers!

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#28 » Jun 19 2015 12:32

There is ofcourse the tactic of having the devastators go after melee/monster units, and have the Assault squads charge/tarpit anything that has a lot of guns.
Not too much of a problem, since all we tau have is lots of guns, but the 3d6 pinning could be very painfull if targeted correctly on nearby Supporting Fire units.
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Myrdin
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#29 » Jun 19 2015 12:55

Cant the Devastators Split fire ? In such case they could potentially pin multiple units, and deny overwatch - that pretty much negates anything that they want.

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Carrelio
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#30 » Jun 19 2015 01:01

At the very least the devs can combat squad to double their pinning power.

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#31 » Jun 19 2015 01:11

I play both Tau and Podding Marines, and have done so for ever. I'm building the Skyhammer Formation, and intend to use it in a large tournament in July, backed up by lots (and lots) of bikes.

As a Tau player, Im not convinced bubble wrap and castling is the way to defeat this formation

With the greatest of respect, I feel people are overestimating the power of EWO. There are many people far better at maths on ATT than I, but a unit of intercepting broadsides will kill maybe 3 marines (assuming they are part of the fire base cadre)? One could counter this by combat squading the dev squad, putting 2 grav cannons in each squad, and putting the bolter marines at the front, taking them off first, and then opening up with the grav cannons (assuming of course you pass your leadership test... but they're L8). Plasma rifles are perhaps more worrying, but not really. It should be reasonably straightforward to deep strike your marines into terrain for a cover save (contrary to what was said earlier in the thread, this is perfectly legal - you simply need to ask a dangerous terrain test). If there is no terrain, then the Tau player's bubble wrap will probably give you a cover save!

As for Riptides, their large blast can be countered with only a reasonable amount of luck. You simply deepstrike your pods as close to your opponent as possible (remember you can't mishap unless you go off the board) and deploy your dev 1" away from your opponents models. In that way the blast marker can not be placed, as it will overlap your own models. Harder to do with the assault squads, but I would be tempted to go for risky deepstrikes, other wise what's the point of the formation? Mishaps are much more forgiving now. And let's not forget, Riptides are only BS3.

And for all of them, it would be reasonably straightforward to put a character in front with a 2+/3++ to tank all the interceptor fire.

As for bubble wrap, that can be effective, but grav cannons have a 24" range so can reach "over" all but the most extensive bubble wrap.

But I think the biggest problem with castling is that you give up board control. Because you put all your heavy hitters on the board, to try and kill the alpha strike, and then wrap them in kroot, and then you opponent wraps them in marines, it's hard to then "breakout" of the castle. While you're locked in your castle dealing with the alpha strike, your opponent is running around the board taking maelstrom objectives and winning the game.

No, I'm afraid IMHO castling with kroot bubble wrap, is not the way to defeat this formation as a Tau player.

EYIG

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#32 » Jun 19 2015 03:08

This is very true. Since we can only put Interceptor on our battlesuits, that limits the amount and effectiveness of hit-back. And bubblewrap can be a double edged sword when you try to shoot back with some intercepting AP2. It may not have the punch that our full shooting phases have when supported by markerlights, but our Intercepting fire is a lot better than most.

Depending on how close the Devs end up, targeting the Drop Pod could give you the flexibility needed to only hit Devs and none of your own Tau models. Yes, scatter happens, and it will probably be at least 4" but that is a choice you have to make.

But if bubblewrap isn't the answer, and EWO isn't enough of an answer, I am eager to hear what is.

The way I see it you have only 5 options (please add more if you think of some)
1- hit first (intercepting weapons)
2- block the hit (make your important models unkillable to the enemy attack. Shield Gen, Stims, Cover, etc.)
3- dodge the hit (protect your important things with throwaway units like Kroot bubble-wrap)
4- Absorb the hit (MSU out the wazoo so that he can't kill all your important models)
5- run away (refuse to play against a space marine player)

1 has been discussed and is the only proactive solution suggested thus far. 2 is almost impossible when the Devs are relentless and can take Grav guns. 3 is not likely to win you any games because the tradeoff is so weak (as EYIG pointed out). I am unsure on the prospects of 4, perhaps we could discuss that option next. 5 is obviously out of the question.

MSU doesn't seem like much of an option to me, since Space Marines are uniquely suited to countering MSU with Combat Squads. This whole formation can combat squad into 8 different units, plus two pods. That isn't including the other 2/3 of the enemy army that can also combat squad.

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#33 » Jun 19 2015 04:30

Frankly I'm not sure what the answer is. The formation is a very hard counter to most Tau lists. I suspect null deployment strategies have a role to play. However, the problem is surviving the first turn alpha strike, so you don't get tabled and auto lose.

My current Tau list consists of 7, three man units of crisis suits and 3 skyrays. Nine times out of 10 I only deploy the skyrays, and deep strike all the suits. For anti drop pod deployment, I had enough kroot to bubble wrap the Skyrays, and push the marines more than 6" away i.e. out of melta range. It would be extremely unlucky if I lost 3 AV13 vehicles in one turn from melta weapons not in double dice range. My suits then come down and killed stuff.

However, that doesn't work with 24" range grav cannons. Up until now I was happy with the risk. Most tournaments only allow 2 detachments, and you would only ever face 2 units of podding centurions (Sentinels of Terra Allies taking them as elites and heavy support in Space Wolf or BA pods). Now however, you can face 3 units (in the new marine dex - 3 HS Cents, in FA pods), or more (combat squaded devs in the sky hammer formation). My 3 skyrays aren't looking so safe now.

However, what might work is an imperial bunker with comms relay. Bunkers are immune to grav weapons, so all the grav cannons just bounce off. If you take a couple of units of kroot you can push even multi meltas back out of double dice range. That way you survive the alpha strike and the rest of your army comes in turn 2 and kills stuff.

The big problem of course is that the Skyhammer formation can come in on turn 2. So, if he's going second, your opponent, might just decide to wait until your army comes in turn 2 and hit you then. That's where the comms relay comes in - re-rolling successful reserve rolls to keep your army off the table until turn 3.

It's not great, but it's the best I've come up with so far.

I should say I'm mostly a tournament player so my lists have to be TAC if at all possible, so tailoring specifically to take on skyhammer is not really an option - what I'm looking to do is tweak my list to give me at least a fighting chance!

EYIG

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#34 » Jun 19 2015 04:43

Honestly people are thinking way to much about the formation and are getting a bit flustered. I have already played against it and done fairly well against it and all I had to do was do a few tweeks to my current army list by adding plasma rifles and ewo. So instead of doubling up on missile pods, I run missile pods + plasma rifles + ewo suits. Honestly our meta is gonna change slightly to counter act what formations space marines and soon Dark angles will be able to do. Honestly I more worried about a specific dark angel formation that makes this space marine formation child's play. I am having no real issue with the said space marine formation so long as I choose the right units to shoot at (depends on what is a bigger threat) with my EWO equipped units which will usually be the devastators. In all honesty the minimal they can spend on that formation is 496 points, no upgrades, no extra guys the complete strip down before buying anything. So by the time they are done tweaking it they will be spending a good chunk of their armies points on a very high risk formation in which tau over all have the best chance at neutering before it even does anything.

I really think we will see the re-emergence of the Missile Pod/Plasma rifle suit once again in the tau armies. A old'ie config that has not be run standard for some time due to doubling out our weapons was a great preferred bang for our buck. Granted doubling out our weapons still is but the question is comes down to how often do you expect to see space marine detachment used? Myself I expect to see it very often at any tournament as there is a good number of space marine players in my area. So I customized my list to deal with the problem. Although for those that would hardly see this formation used then don't worry about it to much until you see it being used to the point were you feel you need to make changes, in all honesty this will be the case for most of us tau players in a more casual atmosphere of game play.

Although the said formation I do not remember the name but what it does is "In the shooting phase dark angels bike squad shoots at a unit and mark it. During the shooting phase a terminator squad deep strikes in and assaults said marked unit during the shooting phase. Also take note most good dark angel players will equip homing beacons to their bike squads which is very cheap to do so. (As this happens during the shooting phase our EWO will not work as it states at the end of the movement phase.) This rumored formation is far more annoying to handle in my opinion we will hear a lot more about it when the codex drops in july (most likely) I am already hearing that's the next codex being released.

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boomwolf
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#35 » Jun 19 2015 05:23

Intercepting broadsides kill about a marine and a half each (1.555), without the formation or other bonuses. It's rather effective if they try to combat squad some bolter devs to run pin tests, as you counter by eliminating most if not all I'd the weapons team before they get to shoot...

At the very least intercepting broadsides prevent the combat squads - but are answered by a non-squadded Dev team using the bolter boys as meatshield and proceeding to grav/melta the broadsides to death. Not an optimal answer, and too restrictive to my tastes.
We need to look for more solutions.

What's the grav range again? 36 right?

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shasocastris
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#36 » Jun 19 2015 05:28

boomwolf wrote:What's the grav range again? 36 right?

No, it's only 24" inches.

Cheers!

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boomwolf
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#37 » Jun 19 2015 05:50

24?that's something you can work with....

Crossfire HRR broadsides/riptides with interceptor, too far apart for a single pod to target both, close enough that each can target the weapon team next to the other - focus on eliminating a single weapon team entirely, worse case you cannot lose more than one group.

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#38 » Jun 20 2015 05:29

Sa'Ran'Sha wrote: Remember that he can only place the drop pod where there is room for it to go - which includes folding out the doors - and that it must remain 1" away from your troops and cannot land in terrain.



Hi fellows,

Just a question about this affirmation from Sa'Ran'Sha: I am not able to found this rule neither on the Deep Strike page (162) nor in the vehicles section (pgs 82 to 98). It is eluding me, or am I looking to the wrong place? Everyone arround here seems to DS their Droop pods with the closed doors where needed, only opening the ones they have enought room...

Thanks in advance

Edited; I've made a name error quoting, sorry Sa'Ran'Sha :)

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