Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
EmbraveYourInnerGeek
Shas
Posts: 41

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#31 » Jun 19 2015 01:11

I play both Tau and Podding Marines, and have done so for ever. I'm building the Skyhammer Formation, and intend to use it in a large tournament in July, backed up by lots (and lots) of bikes.

As a Tau player, Im not convinced bubble wrap and castling is the way to defeat this formation

With the greatest of respect, I feel people are overestimating the power of EWO. There are many people far better at maths on ATT than I, but a unit of intercepting broadsides will kill maybe 3 marines (assuming they are part of the fire base cadre)? One could counter this by combat squading the dev squad, putting 2 grav cannons in each squad, and putting the bolter marines at the front, taking them off first, and then opening up with the grav cannons (assuming of course you pass your leadership test... but they're L8). Plasma rifles are perhaps more worrying, but not really. It should be reasonably straightforward to deep strike your marines into terrain for a cover save (contrary to what was said earlier in the thread, this is perfectly legal - you simply need to ask a dangerous terrain test). If there is no terrain, then the Tau player's bubble wrap will probably give you a cover save!

As for Riptides, their large blast can be countered with only a reasonable amount of luck. You simply deepstrike your pods as close to your opponent as possible (remember you can't mishap unless you go off the board) and deploy your dev 1" away from your opponents models. In that way the blast marker can not be placed, as it will overlap your own models. Harder to do with the assault squads, but I would be tempted to go for risky deepstrikes, other wise what's the point of the formation? Mishaps are much more forgiving now. And let's not forget, Riptides are only BS3.

And for all of them, it would be reasonably straightforward to put a character in front with a 2+/3++ to tank all the interceptor fire.

As for bubble wrap, that can be effective, but grav cannons have a 24" range so can reach "over" all but the most extensive bubble wrap.

But I think the biggest problem with castling is that you give up board control. Because you put all your heavy hitters on the board, to try and kill the alpha strike, and then wrap them in kroot, and then you opponent wraps them in marines, it's hard to then "breakout" of the castle. While you're locked in your castle dealing with the alpha strike, your opponent is running around the board taking maelstrom objectives and winning the game.

No, I'm afraid IMHO castling with kroot bubble wrap, is not the way to defeat this formation as a Tau player.

EYIG

User avatar
Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1153

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#32 » Jun 19 2015 03:08

This is very true. Since we can only put Interceptor on our battlesuits, that limits the amount and effectiveness of hit-back. And bubblewrap can be a double edged sword when you try to shoot back with some intercepting AP2. It may not have the punch that our full shooting phases have when supported by markerlights, but our Intercepting fire is a lot better than most.

Depending on how close the Devs end up, targeting the Drop Pod could give you the flexibility needed to only hit Devs and none of your own Tau models. Yes, scatter happens, and it will probably be at least 4" but that is a choice you have to make.

But if bubblewrap isn't the answer, and EWO isn't enough of an answer, I am eager to hear what is.

The way I see it you have only 5 options (please add more if you think of some)
1- hit first (intercepting weapons)
2- block the hit (make your important models unkillable to the enemy attack. Shield Gen, Stims, Cover, etc.)
3- dodge the hit (protect your important things with throwaway units like Kroot bubble-wrap)
4- Absorb the hit (MSU out the wazoo so that he can't kill all your important models)
5- run away (refuse to play against a space marine player)

1 has been discussed and is the only proactive solution suggested thus far. 2 is almost impossible when the Devs are relentless and can take Grav guns. 3 is not likely to win you any games because the tradeoff is so weak (as EYIG pointed out). I am unsure on the prospects of 4, perhaps we could discuss that option next. 5 is obviously out of the question.

MSU doesn't seem like much of an option to me, since Space Marines are uniquely suited to countering MSU with Combat Squads. This whole formation can combat squad into 8 different units, plus two pods. That isn't including the other 2/3 of the enemy army that can also combat squad.

EmbraveYourInnerGeek
Shas
Posts: 41

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#33 » Jun 19 2015 04:30

Frankly I'm not sure what the answer is. The formation is a very hard counter to most Tau lists. I suspect null deployment strategies have a role to play. However, the problem is surviving the first turn alpha strike, so you don't get tabled and auto lose.

My current Tau list consists of 7, three man units of crisis suits and 3 skyrays. Nine times out of 10 I only deploy the skyrays, and deep strike all the suits. For anti drop pod deployment, I had enough kroot to bubble wrap the Skyrays, and push the marines more than 6" away i.e. out of melta range. It would be extremely unlucky if I lost 3 AV13 vehicles in one turn from melta weapons not in double dice range. My suits then come down and killed stuff.

However, that doesn't work with 24" range grav cannons. Up until now I was happy with the risk. Most tournaments only allow 2 detachments, and you would only ever face 2 units of podding centurions (Sentinels of Terra Allies taking them as elites and heavy support in Space Wolf or BA pods). Now however, you can face 3 units (in the new marine dex - 3 HS Cents, in FA pods), or more (combat squaded devs in the sky hammer formation). My 3 skyrays aren't looking so safe now.

However, what might work is an imperial bunker with comms relay. Bunkers are immune to grav weapons, so all the grav cannons just bounce off. If you take a couple of units of kroot you can push even multi meltas back out of double dice range. That way you survive the alpha strike and the rest of your army comes in turn 2 and kills stuff.

The big problem of course is that the Skyhammer formation can come in on turn 2. So, if he's going second, your opponent, might just decide to wait until your army comes in turn 2 and hit you then. That's where the comms relay comes in - re-rolling successful reserve rolls to keep your army off the table until turn 3.

It's not great, but it's the best I've come up with so far.

I should say I'm mostly a tournament player so my lists have to be TAC if at all possible, so tailoring specifically to take on skyhammer is not really an option - what I'm looking to do is tweak my list to give me at least a fighting chance!

EYIG

Silvtalon
Shas
Posts: 201

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#34 » Jun 19 2015 04:43

Honestly people are thinking way to much about the formation and are getting a bit flustered. I have already played against it and done fairly well against it and all I had to do was do a few tweeks to my current army list by adding plasma rifles and ewo. So instead of doubling up on missile pods, I run missile pods + plasma rifles + ewo suits. Honestly our meta is gonna change slightly to counter act what formations space marines and soon Dark angles will be able to do. Honestly I more worried about a specific dark angel formation that makes this space marine formation child's play. I am having no real issue with the said space marine formation so long as I choose the right units to shoot at (depends on what is a bigger threat) with my EWO equipped units which will usually be the devastators. In all honesty the minimal they can spend on that formation is 496 points, no upgrades, no extra guys the complete strip down before buying anything. So by the time they are done tweaking it they will be spending a good chunk of their armies points on a very high risk formation in which tau over all have the best chance at neutering before it even does anything.

I really think we will see the re-emergence of the Missile Pod/Plasma rifle suit once again in the tau armies. A old'ie config that has not be run standard for some time due to doubling out our weapons was a great preferred bang for our buck. Granted doubling out our weapons still is but the question is comes down to how often do you expect to see space marine detachment used? Myself I expect to see it very often at any tournament as there is a good number of space marine players in my area. So I customized my list to deal with the problem. Although for those that would hardly see this formation used then don't worry about it to much until you see it being used to the point were you feel you need to make changes, in all honesty this will be the case for most of us tau players in a more casual atmosphere of game play.

Although the said formation I do not remember the name but what it does is "In the shooting phase dark angels bike squad shoots at a unit and mark it. During the shooting phase a terminator squad deep strikes in and assaults said marked unit during the shooting phase. Also take note most good dark angel players will equip homing beacons to their bike squads which is very cheap to do so. (As this happens during the shooting phase our EWO will not work as it states at the end of the movement phase.) This rumored formation is far more annoying to handle in my opinion we will hear a lot more about it when the codex drops in july (most likely) I am already hearing that's the next codex being released.

User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Posts: 1570

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#35 » Jun 19 2015 05:23

Intercepting broadsides kill about a marine and a half each (1.555), without the formation or other bonuses. It's rather effective if they try to combat squad some bolter devs to run pin tests, as you counter by eliminating most if not all I'd the weapons team before they get to shoot...

At the very least intercepting broadsides prevent the combat squads - but are answered by a non-squadded Dev team using the bolter boys as meatshield and proceeding to grav/melta the broadsides to death. Not an optimal answer, and too restrictive to my tastes.
We need to look for more solutions.

What's the grav range again? 36 right?

User avatar
shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 902
Contact:

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#36 » Jun 19 2015 05:28

boomwolf wrote:What's the grav range again? 36 right?

No, it's only 24" inches.

Cheers!

User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Posts: 1570

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#37 » Jun 19 2015 05:50

24?that's something you can work with....

Crossfire HRR broadsides/riptides with interceptor, too far apart for a single pod to target both, close enough that each can target the weapon team next to the other - focus on eliminating a single weapon team entirely, worse case you cannot lose more than one group.

Ca'Tau'la
Shas
Posts: 55

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#38 » Jun 20 2015 05:29

Sa'Ran'Sha wrote: Remember that he can only place the drop pod where there is room for it to go - which includes folding out the doors - and that it must remain 1" away from your troops and cannot land in terrain.



Hi fellows,

Just a question about this affirmation from Sa'Ran'Sha: I am not able to found this rule neither on the Deep Strike page (162) nor in the vehicles section (pgs 82 to 98). It is eluding me, or am I looking to the wrong place? Everyone arround here seems to DS their Droop pods with the closed doors where needed, only opening the ones they have enought room...

Thanks in advance

Edited; I've made a name error quoting, sorry Sa'Ran'Sha :)

User avatar
Myrdin
Shas
Posts: 403

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#39 » Jun 20 2015 06:26

Ca'Tau'la wrote:
Sa'Ran'Sha wrote: Remember that he can only place the drop pod where there is room for it to go - which includes folding out the doors - and that it must remain 1" away from your troops and cannot land in terrain.



Hi fellows,

Just a question about this affirmation from Sa'Ran'Sha: I am not able to found this rule neither on the Deep Strike page (162) nor in the vehicles section (pgs 82 to 98). It is eluding me, or am I looking to the wrong place? Everyone arround here seems to DS their Droop pods with the closed doors where needed, only opening the ones they have enought room...

Thanks in advance

Edited; I've made a name error quoting, sorry Sa'Ran'Sha :)


It is only accessible on internet. Here you go:
http://elite40k.blogspot.fr/2015/06/ana ... 000%29&m=1

User avatar
J'Kaara Nan
Shas'Ui
Posts: 621

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#40 » Jun 20 2015 07:24

@Ca'Tau'la

Doors of drop pods are treated as "pass through" for model movement and sight lines. They basically count as always down. You can see through the drop pod even if some doors are not deployed down. Models can disembark from any point on the drop pod as long as they can stand of their own support.

Hope that helps.
Enclave of the 7 Swords: 12-5-2

Return to “Engaging the Alien”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Vio'ra Mal'caor and 1 guest