Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#41 » Jun 20 2015 09:27

Thanks Myrdin, but I was refering to the specific rule about the drop pods in general :D
Nonetheless Thanks for the link, I was talking to a friend yesterday abot this formation and I can give him the link too, so it has benn helpfull too! :)


Thanks too J'Kaara Nan. However a written source is preferable, I can use this point next time I have to deal with the case.
:fear:

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#42 » Jun 22 2015 09:19

The grav cannon is a 24" salvo weapon, so it really needs to get within 12" to have the insta-killing-a-Riptide-every-turn power. Outside of 12" it will still murder most things though.

If you assume that the marines will receive a 5+ cover save on the turn they arrive, then plasma rifles may not actually be all that helpful on the broadsides. I did some math checking and this is what I came up with.
    Broadside w/ PR <12" - 45 points per dead marine
    Broadside w/ PR >12" - 60 points per dead marine
    Braodside w/ SMS <30" - 46.67 points per dead marine.
The SMS seems like the clear choice since it gives you almost the same hitting power as the PR at more than double the range, allowing you to hit the marines no matter where they land. Of course, if they marines don't have the cover save it is another story:
    Broadside w/ PR <12" - 36 points per dead marine
    Broadside w/ PR >12" - 51.4 points per dead marine
    Braodside w/ SMS <30" - 46.67 points per dead marine.
If they have no cover the PR are looking more attractive since if the marines DO land within 12" three broadsides will kill 6 marines. Of course, against a 10-man squad of devastators this will only kill off the bolters. This just shows that even under ideal circumstances, you need more than just one team of Broadsides to counter a full squad of Devastators.

I do like the idea of the Bastion or a Bunker. Grav weapons are all the rage and it would be hilarious to be impervious to them. However, Kroot bubble wrap really would be mandatory. Otherwise the melta-bomb/powerfist assault squads could easily charge in and wreck it. Then all you'd have is whatever was in the Bastion and hope that your reserves roll well.

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#43 » Jun 22 2015 12:25

Da Skyman wrote:The grav cannon is a 24" salvo weapon, so it really needs to get within 12" to have the insta-killing-a-Riptide-every-turn power. Outside of 12" it will still murder most things though.

The devastators gain Relentless due to one of the Formations special rules "First the Fire, then the Blade".
This means they count as stationary when firing Salvo weapons.


Do Salvo weapons that have to fire their lowest number even exist now?

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nic
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#44 » Jun 22 2015 01:57

Da Skyman wrote:If they have no cover the PR are looking more attractive since if the marines DO land within 12" three broadsides will kill 6 marines. Of course, against a 10-man squad of devastators this will only kill off the bolters. This just shows that even under ideal circumstances, you need more than just one team of Broadsides to counter a full squad of Devastators.


Perching a monat Broadside on top of a building is working nicely for me at the moment, I have been working on ideas to model up my next one with plasma rifles for just this reason. The key threat is a melta in range of busting my building and plasma counters that threat strongly.

As I found last week, sometimes you do not have to kill all the marines to get the job done because if you force enough morale tests you might see a key unit break and fall back. In any event if the mere threat of interceptor has prevented the devastators from combat-squadding it has cut down the number of units they can suppress with their annoying formation rule and that is worthwhile anyway.

Da Skyman wrote:I do like the idea of the Bastion or a Bunker. Grav weapons are all the rage and it would be hilarious to be impervious to them. However, Kroot bubble wrap really would be mandatory. Otherwise the melta-bomb/powerfist assault squads could easily charge in and wreck it. Then all you'd have is whatever was in the Bastion and hope that your reserves roll well.


I would add the Void Shield Generator to that list if you are going to consider taking enough kroot bubble-wrap. Hilariously good against grav weapons, so good that you can effectively ignore them as a threat on the turn they drop. Unlike a bastion it happily protects your Riptides and even your kroot.

That means you can focus your interceptor fire onto
a. Weapons that might drop your Void Shields (probably melta in various forms)
b. The imminent assault

If the grav weapons are useless in that first shooting phase you can leave them until your next turn, with any luck your opponent got all aggressive with their drop pods and your kroot can rapid-fire the devastators.

What is not clear - and I would like a FAQ but probably will not get one - is whether the void shield becomes the target of the attack for the purposes of the new suppression rule. The wording of the Void Shield rule where it says "...further hits strike the original target instead." imply that the void shield does become the target until it drops but I am sure I might meet players who think otherwise.

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#45 » Jun 22 2015 02:57

Yes, they are relentless, so they can fire the weapon to full effect, even on the move. But they really do need the 5 shots instead of the 3 if they are going to be killing Riptides, hence the need to be within 12".
However, 3 shots each should be more than enough for most stuff, especially with the chapter tactics shenanigans.

The VSG is another thing I hadn't considered. It would be the perfect companion for the null deploy method. The only downside is that you cannot put a comms relay on it, but that is not a huge deal imho.
It really does necessitate Kroot bubble wrap though, to make sure the marines stay outside the VSG bubble.

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nic
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#46 » Jun 22 2015 03:14

Da Skyman wrote:Yes, they are relentless, so they can fire the weapon to full effect, even on the move. But they really do need the 5 shots instead of the 3 if they are going to be killing Riptides, hence the need to be within 12".
However, 3 shots each should be more than enough for most stuff, especially with the chapter tactics shenanigans.

The VSG is another thing I hadn't considered. It would be the perfect companion for the null deploy method. The only downside is that you cannot put a comms relay on it, but that is not a huge deal imho.
It really does necessitate Kroot bubble wrap though, to make sure the marines stay outside the VSG bubble.


You *could* bubble-wrap with Fire Warriors but it would cost more points and would limit where you put the VSG because they cannot infiltrate beyond your deployment zone. Kroot work better in my opinion not only because they are cheaper but also because a lot of armies will resort to assault to deal with the Void Shield protected army and kroot are better (and less expensive) speed bumps vs assault.

If you put the VSG right in a corner to limit the total area protected you might be able to fill that 12" adequately with a mixture of battlesuits and drones. I have not tried it but it should be feasible, especially if you add in some Skyrays (or similar) which have a pretty large footprint.

Personal experience is that with a VSG you need both bubble-wrap and an adequate amount of Interceptor fire if you want to withstand a decent drop-pod alpha strike. I am still experimenting to try to find the perfect balance.

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#47 » Jun 22 2015 05:32

Da Skyman wrote:Yes, they are relentless, so they can fire the weapon to full effect, even on the move. But they really do need the 5 shots instead of the 3 if they are going to be killing Riptides, hence the need to be within 12".
However, 3 shots each should be more than enough for most stuff, especially with the chapter tactics shenanigans.

I'm not sure I understand the train of thought here... (do tell me if i'm being a complete idiot :P )

Salvo weapons (more specifically Grav Cannons) allow you to:
Move, and fire 3 shots at half range ('12)
Or,
Whilst statioinary, fire 5 shots at full range ('24)

Combined with Relentless, you always count as stationary, and will therefore always fire 5 shots at full range


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Das'Kyman
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#48 » Jun 23 2015 07:43

You are not. I am the one who is a complete idiot. And I even read the rules for Salvo weapons before posting that! My apologies. I feel rather sheepish.
Yes, the grav cannons have a 24" range at full fire. For some reason in my mind Salvo weapons worked like a Rapid Fire weapons of old (stand still fire once at full range or twice at half range. move and fire once at half range). So there is no escaping grav death. I have little experience with the grav-centurions. When I did play them they landed within 12" so I never knew the difference!

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#49 » Jun 24 2015 05:18

Hi ATT,

I've followed this thread with some interest & it occured to me that although you may not find it useful in all games, against this formation specificaly, would a Seismic Fibrillator be a valid counter?

A 36" bubble of dificult terrain on a 2+ & since you attempt to activate it at the start of any turn, you almost guarantee it will work.

This will force them to land out of Grav & charge range & slow their approach, buying you time & turns?

I must admit I am not completly up on the Drop Pod rules, so please feel free to shoot me down!

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#50 » Jun 24 2015 05:44

I looked at that too but the drop pods are allowed to deep strike into difficult terrain. The only drawback for them is the 1-in-6 chance of suffering damage. If it was a 1-in-6 of being destroyed I'd consider it but it is not.

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shasocastris
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#51 » Jun 24 2015 05:53

What about using the Mirrorcodex? It gives a 50% chance each turn to have PE (marines) and adds +1 to our seize roll. Sure, it's expensive as hell, but it could be worth the points. Especially if we get the chance to combine it with Strategic Genius.

Cheers!

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Carrelio
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#52 » Jun 24 2015 07:23

I don't know how valuable the mirror codex would actually be.
The seizing definitely wouldn't be as valuable as it would against other armies since we are actually looking to go second against an exclusively deepstriking force; if we go first all we do is waste a turn and give the final round of the game to the marines. The only time I think we might want to consider that would be if we're trying to really space out our models to eliminate an easy pick for where the deepstrikers want to land (force a choice between objective control or murdering our heavy hitters).
The preferred enemy is more useful (I just wish Farsight had remember to put fresh batteries in his data slates so they worked every turn not just 50% of the time), but I'm not sure how significant the difference actually would be.

If we combined the warscaper drone and the seismic fibrillator would that get us anywhere...? 40 models deepstriking into the difficult/dangerous terrain would be 4.44 wounds, and then to charge with the remaining 18 or so assault marines would cost another 2 wounds before whatever supporting fire we get...

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shasocastris
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#53 » Jun 24 2015 08:00

I think seizing depends on the deployment. The Skyhammer is only ~half an army. The other half is waiting around. Getting a solid first strike on the support of the Skyhammer has merits, especially if it is not prepared for. An army that deploys assuming it's going first, and that then goes second, has problems.

I agree with the warscaper drone/node combo. Although I wouldn't count on all of them being within 12" if we have bubble wrap. What I think will be useful is forcing the charges to have -2.

Cheers!

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#54 » Jun 25 2015 07:22

The node makes terrain difficult for your own units aswell, something to keep in mind.
I've always thought it to be the most useless wargear option in FSE, but a -2 on that turn 1 charge might just be worth it...
Assault Marines have jump packs, and "may move freely over all models and terrain". They might just ignore the -2 altogether (not sure about the specifics on this).


The skyhammer might only be half an army, but more drop pods can be purchased in normal CADs aswell. or worse, get multiple skyhammer formations.

Getting first turn sounds like a bit of a trap, you'll have to position yourself to make these shots against their support (not good with a fibri-node active), and afterwards be in a well-placed supporting fire position.


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Siyath
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#55 » Jun 25 2015 08:12

Can someone tell me where it says that Drop Pods can DS into Difficult Terrain on purpose? I don't have access to any Marine 'dex, and the Inertial Guidance System only concerns scattering into impassable, not specifically allowing DSing into Difficult Terrain. Of course if it's actually not prohibited in the first place, then it's a different issue altogether.

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#56 » Jun 25 2015 08:15

Warscaper + SFN sounds intriguing. Remember that you can pop the SFN during your opponent's turn and it stands a good chance of expiring before your turn. Even if it doesn't expire, difficult terrain isn't nearly as much of an issue for us since most of our battlesuits all have multiple wounds, a good armour save, and aren't slowed by it. The stuff that IS slowed by it usually has decent range on their weapons.

You are right that the enemy won't be slowed down by it though. The assault marines from this formation can use their jump packs to move AND assault so they will always be getting that benefit. The Devastators might end up bunched up close to their drop pod though, which makes them a prime target for the intercepting Ion Accelerator.

Even though it doesn't slow them down, keep in mind that those dangerous terrain tests really can add up when you are dealing with close combat. In the space marine player's turn, his assault marines will face at least 2 and up to 4 if they are fighting within 12" of the warscaper:
1- landing in difficult terrain when deep striking
2- landing in difficult terrain w/ jump pack on charge
3- dangerous terrain test when piling in at their initiative step
4- dangerous terrain test on final pile-in OR if they destroy their target and choose to consolidate

It's tedious, and requires you to make sure your opponent is following the assault rules to the letter. But that is a Lot of dangerous terrain tests, and you only need to kill a few marines to make it worth it. And since DTT are random, it COULD kill that sergeant with the power fist...
But what Tau unit makes the most of the Warscaper? Something that needs the Move Through Cover and/or outflank in case you don't really need the dangerous terrain bit. All I can think of is the Farsight Bomb, which wouldn't be deployed on the board normally...

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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#57 » Jun 25 2015 11:33

Siyath wrote:Can someone tell me where it says that Drop Pods can DS into Difficult Terrain on purpose? I don't have access to any Marine 'dex, and the Inertial Guidance System only concerns scattering into impassable, not specifically allowing DSing into Difficult Terrain. Of course if it's actually not prohibited in the first place, then it's a different issue altogether.

Drop pods don't care about difficult terrain. They do take a dangerous terrain check (and so might lose two hull points) but even then I don't think that will kill them. Unless they changed something in the new marine codex, they are 3 HP each.

Da Skyman wrote:You are right that the enemy won't be slowed down by it though. The assault marines from this formation can use their jump packs to move AND assault so they will always be getting that benefit. The Devastators might end up bunched up close to their drop pod though, which makes them a prime target for the intercepting Ion Accelerator.

Darn. After reading the rules for jump infantry (they go "over" terrain) and the assault rules (units moving "through" suffer -2") they indeed don't suffer from difficult terrain the way normal infantry do. Thankfully, they still do suffer from dangerous, so by the time they are charging, they'll have lost ~2 models, plus anything from overwatch.

And it seems that these guys would be the interceptor targets for an ion accelerator, since they *have* to be bunched up.

Cheers!

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nic
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Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#58 » Jun 25 2015 12:50

Da Skyman wrote:Warscaper + SFN sounds intriguing. Remember that you can pop the SFN during your opponent's turn and it stands a good chance of expiring before your turn. Even if it doesn't expire, difficult terrain isn't nearly as much of an issue for us since most of our battlesuits all have multiple wounds, a good armour save, and aren't slowed by it. The stuff that IS slowed by it usually has decent range on their weapons.

You are right that the enemy won't be slowed down by it though. The assault marines from this formation can use their jump packs to move AND assault so they will always be getting that benefit. The Devastators might end up bunched up close to their drop pod though, which makes them a prime target for the intercepting Ion Accelerator.

.


It seems like a substantial investment in points relative to the return. For less points I could have a monat broadside with EWO which would get interceptor and overwatch - and would be more generally useful against other lists.

Careful placement can usually give some of my castled up forces the benefit of difficult terrain (acting as dangerous terrain for jump infantry) anyway.

My focus really would be on interceptor and overwatch fire.

For interceptor the question is whether the devastators are in combat squads. If they are it is easier to focus my interceptor fire and take out some of the expensive heavy weapons before they hurt me. If they stay as big squads I am probably limited to forcing morale checks on them as I remove the cheaper bolter-wielding models but they lose out on how many of my units they can suppress for supporting fire. In the case of full strength devastator squads I might be better advised to target those assault squads that came out best from the deep strike scatter and are in the best positions to assault.

With overwatch the best ways to preserve its effectiveness would seem to be
1. MSU overwatch - such as monat broadsides
2. Vehicle overwatch - vehicles do not take morale checks and so are immune to the Suppressing Fusilade. This includes Longstrike.
3. Fortifications/void shields

I am not quite sure what to make of the Suppressing Fusilade and Riptides. As an MC the riptide cannot possibly go to ground either voluntarily or otherwise; normally in this situation I would not make a pinning test at all because it is irrelevant. In a situation where an opponent insists on the test being taken anyway if you fail it there is no penalty (you are forbidden to go to ground) but if you pass it you lose overwatch. If we take a literal view of that rule you want to fail the test, which fortunately is quite likely on 3D6.

The rules for Suppressing Fusilade and Void Shields (which are one of the 3 pillars of my list) are similarly poorly worked out and the interactions have no absolutely clear-cut answer.

Honestly this Suppressing Fusilade rule is a mess of poor interactions with other rules in the game; other than in a friendly game with someone I know and trust not to be a rules lawyer jerk I think I would insist on seeing in their hand the genuine printed article of the formation sheet direct from GW before I would allow someone to play this formation against me purely because of of the potential rules mess. As hardly anyone will ever have that genuine original sheet I think that will limit the problem to a one-in-a-lifetime problem, I can live with that.

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