Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
User avatar
shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 957
Contact:

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#51 » Jun 24 2015 05:53

What about using the Mirrorcodex? It gives a 50% chance each turn to have PE (marines) and adds +1 to our seize roll. Sure, it's expensive as hell, but it could be worth the points. Especially if we get the chance to combine it with Strategic Genius.

Cheers!

User avatar
Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#52 » Jun 24 2015 07:23

I don't know how valuable the mirror codex would actually be.
The seizing definitely wouldn't be as valuable as it would against other armies since we are actually looking to go second against an exclusively deepstriking force; if we go first all we do is waste a turn and give the final round of the game to the marines. The only time I think we might want to consider that would be if we're trying to really space out our models to eliminate an easy pick for where the deepstrikers want to land (force a choice between objective control or murdering our heavy hitters).
The preferred enemy is more useful (I just wish Farsight had remember to put fresh batteries in his data slates so they worked every turn not just 50% of the time), but I'm not sure how significant the difference actually would be.

If we combined the warscaper drone and the seismic fibrillator would that get us anywhere...? 40 models deepstriking into the difficult/dangerous terrain would be 4.44 wounds, and then to charge with the remaining 18 or so assault marines would cost another 2 wounds before whatever supporting fire we get...

User avatar
shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 957
Contact:

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#53 » Jun 24 2015 08:00

I think seizing depends on the deployment. The Skyhammer is only ~half an army. The other half is waiting around. Getting a solid first strike on the support of the Skyhammer has merits, especially if it is not prepared for. An army that deploys assuming it's going first, and that then goes second, has problems.

I agree with the warscaper drone/node combo. Although I wouldn't count on all of them being within 12" if we have bubble wrap. What I think will be useful is forcing the charges to have -2.

Cheers!

User avatar
ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
Posts: 742

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#54 » Jun 25 2015 07:22

The node makes terrain difficult for your own units aswell, something to keep in mind.
I've always thought it to be the most useless wargear option in FSE, but a -2 on that turn 1 charge might just be worth it...
Assault Marines have jump packs, and "may move freely over all models and terrain". They might just ignore the -2 altogether (not sure about the specifics on this).


The skyhammer might only be half an army, but more drop pods can be purchased in normal CADs aswell. or worse, get multiple skyhammer formations.

Getting first turn sounds like a bit of a trap, you'll have to position yourself to make these shots against their support (not good with a fibri-node active), and afterwards be in a well-placed supporting fire position.


-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

User avatar
Siyath
Shas
Posts: 268

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#55 » Jun 25 2015 08:12

Can someone tell me where it says that Drop Pods can DS into Difficult Terrain on purpose? I don't have access to any Marine 'dex, and the Inertial Guidance System only concerns scattering into impassable, not specifically allowing DSing into Difficult Terrain. Of course if it's actually not prohibited in the first place, then it's a different issue altogether.

Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1160

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#56 » Jun 25 2015 08:15

Warscaper + SFN sounds intriguing. Remember that you can pop the SFN during your opponent's turn and it stands a good chance of expiring before your turn. Even if it doesn't expire, difficult terrain isn't nearly as much of an issue for us since most of our battlesuits all have multiple wounds, a good armour save, and aren't slowed by it. The stuff that IS slowed by it usually has decent range on their weapons.

You are right that the enemy won't be slowed down by it though. The assault marines from this formation can use their jump packs to move AND assault so they will always be getting that benefit. The Devastators might end up bunched up close to their drop pod though, which makes them a prime target for the intercepting Ion Accelerator.

Even though it doesn't slow them down, keep in mind that those dangerous terrain tests really can add up when you are dealing with close combat. In the space marine player's turn, his assault marines will face at least 2 and up to 4 if they are fighting within 12" of the warscaper:
1- landing in difficult terrain when deep striking
2- landing in difficult terrain w/ jump pack on charge
3- dangerous terrain test when piling in at their initiative step
4- dangerous terrain test on final pile-in OR if they destroy their target and choose to consolidate

It's tedious, and requires you to make sure your opponent is following the assault rules to the letter. But that is a Lot of dangerous terrain tests, and you only need to kill a few marines to make it worth it. And since DTT are random, it COULD kill that sergeant with the power fist...
But what Tau unit makes the most of the Warscaper? Something that needs the Move Through Cover and/or outflank in case you don't really need the dangerous terrain bit. All I can think of is the Farsight Bomb, which wouldn't be deployed on the board normally...

User avatar
shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 957
Contact:

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#57 » Jun 25 2015 11:33

Siyath wrote:Can someone tell me where it says that Drop Pods can DS into Difficult Terrain on purpose? I don't have access to any Marine 'dex, and the Inertial Guidance System only concerns scattering into impassable, not specifically allowing DSing into Difficult Terrain. Of course if it's actually not prohibited in the first place, then it's a different issue altogether.

Drop pods don't care about difficult terrain. They do take a dangerous terrain check (and so might lose two hull points) but even then I don't think that will kill them. Unless they changed something in the new marine codex, they are 3 HP each.

Da Skyman wrote:You are right that the enemy won't be slowed down by it though. The assault marines from this formation can use their jump packs to move AND assault so they will always be getting that benefit. The Devastators might end up bunched up close to their drop pod though, which makes them a prime target for the intercepting Ion Accelerator.

Darn. After reading the rules for jump infantry (they go "over" terrain) and the assault rules (units moving "through" suffer -2") they indeed don't suffer from difficult terrain the way normal infantry do. Thankfully, they still do suffer from dangerous, so by the time they are charging, they'll have lost ~2 models, plus anything from overwatch.

And it seems that these guys would be the interceptor targets for an ion accelerator, since they *have* to be bunched up.

Cheers!

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 743

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#58 » Jun 25 2015 12:50

Da Skyman wrote:Warscaper + SFN sounds intriguing. Remember that you can pop the SFN during your opponent's turn and it stands a good chance of expiring before your turn. Even if it doesn't expire, difficult terrain isn't nearly as much of an issue for us since most of our battlesuits all have multiple wounds, a good armour save, and aren't slowed by it. The stuff that IS slowed by it usually has decent range on their weapons.

You are right that the enemy won't be slowed down by it though. The assault marines from this formation can use their jump packs to move AND assault so they will always be getting that benefit. The Devastators might end up bunched up close to their drop pod though, which makes them a prime target for the intercepting Ion Accelerator.

.


It seems like a substantial investment in points relative to the return. For less points I could have a monat broadside with EWO which would get interceptor and overwatch - and would be more generally useful against other lists.

Careful placement can usually give some of my castled up forces the benefit of difficult terrain (acting as dangerous terrain for jump infantry) anyway.

My focus really would be on interceptor and overwatch fire.

For interceptor the question is whether the devastators are in combat squads. If they are it is easier to focus my interceptor fire and take out some of the expensive heavy weapons before they hurt me. If they stay as big squads I am probably limited to forcing morale checks on them as I remove the cheaper bolter-wielding models but they lose out on how many of my units they can suppress for supporting fire. In the case of full strength devastator squads I might be better advised to target those assault squads that came out best from the deep strike scatter and are in the best positions to assault.

With overwatch the best ways to preserve its effectiveness would seem to be
1. MSU overwatch - such as monat broadsides
2. Vehicle overwatch - vehicles do not take morale checks and so are immune to the Suppressing Fusilade. This includes Longstrike.
3. Fortifications/void shields

I am not quite sure what to make of the Suppressing Fusilade and Riptides. As an MC the riptide cannot possibly go to ground either voluntarily or otherwise; normally in this situation I would not make a pinning test at all because it is irrelevant. In a situation where an opponent insists on the test being taken anyway if you fail it there is no penalty (you are forbidden to go to ground) but if you pass it you lose overwatch. If we take a literal view of that rule you want to fail the test, which fortunately is quite likely on 3D6.

The rules for Suppressing Fusilade and Void Shields (which are one of the 3 pillars of my list) are similarly poorly worked out and the interactions have no absolutely clear-cut answer.

Honestly this Suppressing Fusilade rule is a mess of poor interactions with other rules in the game; other than in a friendly game with someone I know and trust not to be a rules lawyer jerk I think I would insist on seeing in their hand the genuine printed article of the formation sheet direct from GW before I would allow someone to play this formation against me purely because of of the potential rules mess. As hardly anyone will ever have that genuine original sheet I think that will limit the problem to a one-in-a-lifetime problem, I can live with that.

User avatar
Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#59 » Jun 25 2015 03:15

nic wrote:
It seems like a substantial investment in points relative to the return. For less points I could have a monat broadside with EWO which would get interceptor and overwatch - and would be more generally useful against other lists.


Why not both?

Interceptor missilesides will kill 4 marines per unit of 3 using their interceptor, which isn’t nothing but isn’t going to stop those remaining marines doing exactly what they had intended to do anyways (pin us to the ground and kick our teeth in). I also think that combat squad will be the way a marine player will want to go against us, but a smart player won’t just put all their heavy weapons in one squad and all their bolter marines in another if they see we have intercepting broadsides. Mixed units of 5 will be a tougher nut to crack and our opponents will know that.

I think as far as riptides for interceptor shooting are concerned the clumped together assault marines are really the only real option as far as targets go. I was in my local GW today and basically had this whole issue with the skyhammer dismissed by being told that if my riptides couldn’t one shot it I was living in a fantasy world... but crunching the numbers I’m pretty sure you’re looking at hitting around 2 devastators per pie plate if your opponent has disembarked them smartly (expecting pie plates).

Not that there’s anything that can be done about it, but just in general musings I’ve been concerned with the out of turn shooting from interceptor basically writing off even more of our shooting in our turn (on top of the 4 units that won’t be shooting because they’ve been forced to ground or impressed into not shooting), the turn that would have light support.

I hadn’t thought about taking vehicles for overwatch, that’s an interesting idea.

Edited: increased average number of devastators killed by missilesides in response to learning multi-trackers work during shooting in off turns as well.
Last edited by Carrelio on Jun 25 2015 03:38, edited 1 time in total.

Kindrin
Shas'Saal
Posts: 185

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#60 » Jun 25 2015 03:29

For those participating ITC tournaments, remember that "Rules that allow a model to shoot more than one weapon in the shooting phase apply to shooting attacks made in other phases of the game, such as overwatch and interceptor shooting." (The Shooting Phase section in the FAQ, page 3). https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

User avatar
J'Kaara Nan
Shas'Ui
Posts: 621

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#61 » Jun 26 2015 12:27

Really a HBCtide shines a lot more here than its IA brother. With proper spacing, you are looking at 3 good taps on a squad, with amazing rolls, whether you go blast or larger profile, with the IA.

The HBC on the other hand should be spitting out 12 rending shots that wound on 2s. With a proper few marker shots and potentially even an ECPA, marines are frighteningly vulnerable to this.

Even if you mitigate the shots to overwatch, a few lucky markers first turn the HBCAtide into an amazing deterrent unit. No space marine can just accept the fact that one of his units may get outright deleted before its use, which means it either serves as a bullet sponge or an are denial unit.

Something to think about, especially you trip tide players. Two of these with an EWO or even a CDS will terrify any player coming in via DS.
Enclave of the 7 Swords: 12-5-2

User avatar
ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
Posts: 742

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#62 » Jun 26 2015 05:48

I'll have to disagree on the HBC being better against MEQ's then an IA.

It's only AP4, rending 1/6th of your wounds is nice, but the IA is AP2 by default.
Has something going for it in overwatch with it's 12 shots, but would still rather take the 3 AP2 shots from the IA, and hope for atleast one 6.
The HBC relies on you passing your nova-charge, or it will miss out on 4 shots, and rending. The IA doesn't need a nova-charge for it's Str8 Blast profile.

Let's say, two HBC riptides got lucky and in their shooting phase managed to dish out 24wounds, 4 of wich were rending (100% hit/wound ratio).
That's ~6 failed saves, and 4 AP2 wounds, only just enough to remove a 10-man marine squad.


I'd say, the HBC only really outshines the IA versus 4+ models, or light vehicles.


-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

User avatar
J'Kaara Nan
Shas'Ui
Posts: 621

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#63 » Jun 26 2015 02:56

I was accounting for a few markerlights and interceptor with the HBC. The IA suffers in that the assault marines are going to be spread out well if your player is adept in any ways. As stated, getting three of them under the blast is a lucky hit, and the uncharged profile gives you only the three MAX hits, so the best you should hope for from an IA tide on interceptor OR overwatch is a total of 6 MAX kills.

The HBC on the otherhand potential rises much quicker with a few marker lights, and if you are FSE player like me, even farther with an ECPA.

A nova charged HBC with a modest two marker lights nets you a total of:
-10 hits with re-rolls of 1's, giving off 11 hits.
-10.5 wounds, with rending

Im not great with mathhammer, but the way I see it, if you net only 2 rending shots out of the whole bunch, thats still 3-4 unsaved armor wounds and 2 ish rending wounds, from a single riptide, on the interceptor phase alone. Add in the overwatch phase and you get even more potentially.
Enclave of the 7 Swords: 12-5-2

Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1160

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#64 » Jun 26 2015 03:33

I am a bit confused. Are we talking about Intercepting fire or regular fire? The superiority of the HBC during a regular shooting phase is discussed in other threads but I don't think it is particularly relevant here.
J'Kaara Nan wrote:I was accounting for a few markerlights and interceptor with the HBC. The IA suffers in that the assault marines are going to be spread out well if your player is adept in any ways.
As per the Deep Strike rules, the Assault Marines will all be in base-to-base contact at the end of the movement phase (when you get to fire Intercept weapons)
So you have basically a 44% chance of hitting all 10 marines with the blast (33.33% chance you don't scatter and 16.66% chance that you'll roll 4 or less on the scatter).
The HBC is much less likely to whiff, but it is also much less likely to kill more than 2-3, even when Nova Charged. If we are being honest, killing 3 assault marines during Intercept isn't much better than killing 0. It only takes a few marines to clear out any of our units. I'd prefer the possibility of wiping out the entire unit (and the entire threat)
The risk/return of the IA seems like the clear winner to me, but I guess that might be a preference issue. Neither weapon has very good odds of removing the threat entirely, and partially removing it is not going to do us much good.

FYI Mathammer on Overwatch:
IA: 3 shots - 0.5 hits - 0.4167 wounds - no saves = 0.4167 dead marines
HBC: 8 shots - 1.333 hits - 1.111 wounds - 0.3704 failed saves = 0.3704 dead marines
HBC (nova): 12 shots - 2 hits - 1.333/0.333 wounds/rends - 0.444 failed saves = 0.778 dead marines
my math could be wrong, but I would favor the IA because it does not require a succesfull Nova charge on the previous turn to work and neither weapon is going to be halting an Assault Marine charge in its tracks anyways.

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 743

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#65 » Jun 26 2015 05:49

Da Skyman wrote:I am a bit confused. Are we talking about Intercepting fire or regular fire? The superiority of the HBC during a regular shooting phase is discussed in other threads but I don't think it is particularly relevant here.
J'Kaara Nan wrote:I was accounting for a few markerlights and interceptor with the HBC. The IA suffers in that the assault marines are going to be spread out well if your player is adept in any ways.
As per the Deep Strike rules, the Assault Marines will all be in base-to-base contact at the end of the movement phase (when you get to fire Intercept weapons)
So you have basically a 44% chance of hitting all 10 marines with the blast (33.33% chance you don't scatter and 16.66% chance that you'll roll 4 or less on the scatter).
The HBC is much less likely to whiff, but it is also much less likely to kill more than 2-3, even when Nova Charged. If we are being honest, killing 3 assault marines during Intercept isn't much better than killing 0. It only takes a few marines to clear out any of our units. I'd prefer the possibility of wiping out the entire unit (and the entire threat)
The risk/return of the IA seems like the clear winner to me, but I guess that might be a preference issue. Neither weapon has very good odds of removing the threat entirely, and partially removing it is not going to do us much good.



One more factor in favour of the IA is that your opponent is trying to put more than one unit in your face to assault you and provide supporting fire that can reach past your bubble-wrap to the more valuable units - a miss might just scatter onto some other worthwhile target whereas a miss with the HBC does nothing. Of course you could scatter onto your own units :::(

Killing 3 or more assault marines with interceptor is the minimum that might do some good - with that many casualties they have to take a morale check and their leadership is merely OK. They cannot be joined by IC without wrecking their own special rules so it is actually hard to buff them up to remove that risk of falling back and losing the alpha-assault which is the whole point of them.

As for overwatch, I always take EWO + CDS on my riptides these days. That BS2 makes a huge difference. Seriously consider nova charging the secondary weapon because twin-linked overwatch is very nice - although with Grav weapons coming in I tend to nova charge the shield to keep the big guy alive. As mentioned further up the thread the riptide overwatch is only suppressed if you *pass* the Ld check on the 3D6 roll.

Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1160

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#66 » Jun 30 2015 08:55

I just read an article that brought something to my attention: Vehicle Overwatch will not be possible if they are targeted by the Devastators.

Vehicles automatically pass morale checks and whatnot, which means they would automatically pass this check and then they would be unable to Overwatch.
Granted, vehicular overwatch wasn't a strong option anyways, but it is worth remembering that vehicles are not immune to these guys.

It's interesting to think that you will WANT to fail the check with the Riptides, since they cannot go to ground and would be able to Overwatch as normal. Weird...

Was this already mentioned? I haven't read through the whole post.

User avatar
reconjsh
Shas
Posts: 509

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#67 » Jun 30 2015 01:28

Da Skyman wrote:Vehicles automatically pass morale checks and whatnot, which means they would automatically pass this check and then they would be unable to Overwatch.


Possible technical correction with what you just said. Vehicles don't "automatically pass morale checks", as you said, according to BRB... they never have to take them in the first place.

Direct from Core Rules:
BRB wrote:Therefore, vehicles never take Morale checks or Leadership tests.


Now, I'm not familiar with the Space Marine stuff, so maybe it overrides the BRB. Not sure on that.

Recon.
My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1160

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#68 » Jul 15 2015 10:49

For what it is worth, I've posted the list of a Tau player that got 4th best general at the BAO this year. HERE

I don't know if he had to play against a Drop Pod Assault, but it is highly likely. He is an excellent player, so that most likely had a lot to do with it as well. Even so, the list was clearly built with a Drop Pod assault in mind and it performed well at a large GT.

Return to “Engaging the Alien”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest