Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
User avatar
J'Kaara Nan
Shas'Ui
Posts: 621

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#61 » Jun 26 2015 12:27

Really a HBCtide shines a lot more here than its IA brother. With proper spacing, you are looking at 3 good taps on a squad, with amazing rolls, whether you go blast or larger profile, with the IA.

The HBC on the other hand should be spitting out 12 rending shots that wound on 2s. With a proper few marker shots and potentially even an ECPA, marines are frighteningly vulnerable to this.

Even if you mitigate the shots to overwatch, a few lucky markers first turn the HBCAtide into an amazing deterrent unit. No space marine can just accept the fact that one of his units may get outright deleted before its use, which means it either serves as a bullet sponge or an are denial unit.

Something to think about, especially you trip tide players. Two of these with an EWO or even a CDS will terrify any player coming in via DS.
Enclave of the 7 Swords: 12-5-2

User avatar
ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
Posts: 742

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#62 » Jun 26 2015 05:48

I'll have to disagree on the HBC being better against MEQ's then an IA.

It's only AP4, rending 1/6th of your wounds is nice, but the IA is AP2 by default.
Has something going for it in overwatch with it's 12 shots, but would still rather take the 3 AP2 shots from the IA, and hope for atleast one 6.
The HBC relies on you passing your nova-charge, or it will miss out on 4 shots, and rending. The IA doesn't need a nova-charge for it's Str8 Blast profile.

Let's say, two HBC riptides got lucky and in their shooting phase managed to dish out 24wounds, 4 of wich were rending (100% hit/wound ratio).
That's ~6 failed saves, and 4 AP2 wounds, only just enough to remove a 10-man marine squad.


I'd say, the HBC only really outshines the IA versus 4+ models, or light vehicles.


-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

User avatar
J'Kaara Nan
Shas'Ui
Posts: 621

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#63 » Jun 26 2015 02:56

I was accounting for a few markerlights and interceptor with the HBC. The IA suffers in that the assault marines are going to be spread out well if your player is adept in any ways. As stated, getting three of them under the blast is a lucky hit, and the uncharged profile gives you only the three MAX hits, so the best you should hope for from an IA tide on interceptor OR overwatch is a total of 6 MAX kills.

The HBC on the otherhand potential rises much quicker with a few marker lights, and if you are FSE player like me, even farther with an ECPA.

A nova charged HBC with a modest two marker lights nets you a total of:
-10 hits with re-rolls of 1's, giving off 11 hits.
-10.5 wounds, with rending

Im not great with mathhammer, but the way I see it, if you net only 2 rending shots out of the whole bunch, thats still 3-4 unsaved armor wounds and 2 ish rending wounds, from a single riptide, on the interceptor phase alone. Add in the overwatch phase and you get even more potentially.
Enclave of the 7 Swords: 12-5-2

User avatar
Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1153

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#64 » Jun 26 2015 03:33

I am a bit confused. Are we talking about Intercepting fire or regular fire? The superiority of the HBC during a regular shooting phase is discussed in other threads but I don't think it is particularly relevant here.
J'Kaara Nan wrote:I was accounting for a few markerlights and interceptor with the HBC. The IA suffers in that the assault marines are going to be spread out well if your player is adept in any ways.
As per the Deep Strike rules, the Assault Marines will all be in base-to-base contact at the end of the movement phase (when you get to fire Intercept weapons)
So you have basically a 44% chance of hitting all 10 marines with the blast (33.33% chance you don't scatter and 16.66% chance that you'll roll 4 or less on the scatter).
The HBC is much less likely to whiff, but it is also much less likely to kill more than 2-3, even when Nova Charged. If we are being honest, killing 3 assault marines during Intercept isn't much better than killing 0. It only takes a few marines to clear out any of our units. I'd prefer the possibility of wiping out the entire unit (and the entire threat)
The risk/return of the IA seems like the clear winner to me, but I guess that might be a preference issue. Neither weapon has very good odds of removing the threat entirely, and partially removing it is not going to do us much good.

FYI Mathammer on Overwatch:
IA: 3 shots - 0.5 hits - 0.4167 wounds - no saves = 0.4167 dead marines
HBC: 8 shots - 1.333 hits - 1.111 wounds - 0.3704 failed saves = 0.3704 dead marines
HBC (nova): 12 shots - 2 hits - 1.333/0.333 wounds/rends - 0.444 failed saves = 0.778 dead marines
my math could be wrong, but I would favor the IA because it does not require a succesfull Nova charge on the previous turn to work and neither weapon is going to be halting an Assault Marine charge in its tracks anyways.

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 632

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#65 » Jun 26 2015 05:49

Da Skyman wrote:I am a bit confused. Are we talking about Intercepting fire or regular fire? The superiority of the HBC during a regular shooting phase is discussed in other threads but I don't think it is particularly relevant here.
J'Kaara Nan wrote:I was accounting for a few markerlights and interceptor with the HBC. The IA suffers in that the assault marines are going to be spread out well if your player is adept in any ways.
As per the Deep Strike rules, the Assault Marines will all be in base-to-base contact at the end of the movement phase (when you get to fire Intercept weapons)
So you have basically a 44% chance of hitting all 10 marines with the blast (33.33% chance you don't scatter and 16.66% chance that you'll roll 4 or less on the scatter).
The HBC is much less likely to whiff, but it is also much less likely to kill more than 2-3, even when Nova Charged. If we are being honest, killing 3 assault marines during Intercept isn't much better than killing 0. It only takes a few marines to clear out any of our units. I'd prefer the possibility of wiping out the entire unit (and the entire threat)
The risk/return of the IA seems like the clear winner to me, but I guess that might be a preference issue. Neither weapon has very good odds of removing the threat entirely, and partially removing it is not going to do us much good.



One more factor in favour of the IA is that your opponent is trying to put more than one unit in your face to assault you and provide supporting fire that can reach past your bubble-wrap to the more valuable units - a miss might just scatter onto some other worthwhile target whereas a miss with the HBC does nothing. Of course you could scatter onto your own units :::(

Killing 3 or more assault marines with interceptor is the minimum that might do some good - with that many casualties they have to take a morale check and their leadership is merely OK. They cannot be joined by IC without wrecking their own special rules so it is actually hard to buff them up to remove that risk of falling back and losing the alpha-assault which is the whole point of them.

As for overwatch, I always take EWO + CDS on my riptides these days. That BS2 makes a huge difference. Seriously consider nova charging the secondary weapon because twin-linked overwatch is very nice - although with Grav weapons coming in I tend to nova charge the shield to keep the big guy alive. As mentioned further up the thread the riptide overwatch is only suppressed if you *pass* the Ld check on the 3D6 roll.

User avatar
Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1153

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#66 » Jun 30 2015 08:55

I just read an article that brought something to my attention: Vehicle Overwatch will not be possible if they are targeted by the Devastators.

Vehicles automatically pass morale checks and whatnot, which means they would automatically pass this check and then they would be unable to Overwatch.
Granted, vehicular overwatch wasn't a strong option anyways, but it is worth remembering that vehicles are not immune to these guys.

It's interesting to think that you will WANT to fail the check with the Riptides, since they cannot go to ground and would be able to Overwatch as normal. Weird...

Was this already mentioned? I haven't read through the whole post.

User avatar
reconjsh
Shas
Posts: 509

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#67 » Jun 30 2015 01:28

Da Skyman wrote:Vehicles automatically pass morale checks and whatnot, which means they would automatically pass this check and then they would be unable to Overwatch.


Possible technical correction with what you just said. Vehicles don't "automatically pass morale checks", as you said, according to BRB... they never have to take them in the first place.

Direct from Core Rules:
BRB wrote:Therefore, vehicles never take Morale checks or Leadership tests.


Now, I'm not familiar with the Space Marine stuff, so maybe it overrides the BRB. Not sure on that.

Recon.
My Cadre Log - [need better pictures]

User avatar
Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1153

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#68 » Jul 15 2015 10:49

For what it is worth, I've posted the list of a Tau player that got 4th best general at the BAO this year. HERE

I don't know if he had to play against a Drop Pod Assault, but it is highly likely. He is an excellent player, so that most likely had a lot to do with it as well. Even so, the list was clearly built with a Drop Pod assault in mind and it performed well at a large GT.

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 632

Re: Space Marine Drop Pod Assault

Post#69 » Jul 15 2015 04:42

Da Skyman wrote:For what it is worth, I've posted the list of a Tau player that got 4th best general at the BAO this year. HERE

I don't know if he had to play against a Drop Pod Assault, but it is highly likely. He is an excellent player, so that most likely had a lot to do with it as well. Even so, the list was clearly built with a Drop Pod assault in mind and it performed well at a large GT.


If Bloodofkittens is right he played an Iron Hands/Flesh Tearers/Culexus assassin drop pod list in his last game, no clue about the rest.

What I liked about that list was that it invested heavily in two of the remaining things that Tau still have special strengths in - deployment shenanigans and interceptor fire. It was still a solid shooting list with good mobility but I can see how one or both of those special tricks would be well worth the points spent on them in many match ups.

Return to “Engaging the Alien”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest