Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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Myrdin
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#19 » Aug 28 2014 06:02

Just thought of something, maybe it´ll work.

Wraiths are T4, soo it requires at least S8 to instagib them. Interesting (although expensive) option might be to take Darkstrider, to enhance the effectivnes of yoru troops. Either in a full unit of Pathfinders with max. amount of special weapons (Thus the Rail Rifles and Ion rifles from the pathfinders would cause instant death due to reducing Wraiths T, with Darkstrider.)
Or
Plop him and a Cadre Fireblade in one full man squad of Fire warriors. Though not instant killing it would quite interesting to see the reult.
Then again, its expensive since he costs something around 100 or 110 points just by himself. Might be fun to try in a larger game though.

SpaceCowboy
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#20 » Aug 29 2014 01:57

Well that went less than swimmingly!

I let loose on 6 Canoptek Wraiths with 3 broadsides, 1 commander & 2 bodygaurds with TL missile pods and fusion blasters and 24 fire warriors. All supported by markerlights from a pathfinder unit. Even got 2 rounds of overwatch in by sacrificing unit of fire warriors. In 3 turns I managed to kill 4 of them. 3+ invulnerable save is such a *$/=M%@. (if I missed a rule that bypasses these, please do tell!) At this point they managed to get in melee.

The first lesson for me was that against crisis suits these guys arent that formidable in melee. 2 crisis bodygaurds managed to fight 2 wraiths to a draw. Second lesson was that pouring all that firepower into the wraiths allowed the rest of his army to advance unharmed. My mate also had a Nightscythe with a deathray which, due to my underestimation, managed to knock off my commander.

So next time I'll be paying these guys a little less attention. Maybe round up Farsight and unleash Tau Melee!
Also, I need to buy less food and stuff and buy more Riptide. Priorities.

Thanks for the input guys!

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Bitterman
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#21 » Aug 29 2014 02:32

3++ is the worst thing in 40K. (Available to a standard unit, anyway. The 2++/rerollable thing that Screamerstars had going on for a while there was even worse, though happily I never had to play against it myself). Combine it to a unit that's tough, fast, deadly, and ignores terrain, and it's just dirty.

Played a 40K tournament at Warhammer World a couple of years back, my Marines against Necrons. Six Wraiths killed, in turn: 5 Terminators, 5 Tactical Marines, 5 Devastators, 4 Tactical Marines (the other one was already dead, one of the few models that needed to be killed by the rest of his army) and my Captain.

I killed two Wraiths.

Nothing should be that good.

In general, anything strong enough to seriously hurt Wraiths (ie. S8, for insta-kill) probably doesn't fire enough shots to get past the 3++. Anything that fires enough shots to overwhelm the 3++, probably isn't strong enough to get past their toughness and wounds. The latter option - volume of fire - probably remains the better option, and if you build a list for the purpose I'm sure it's fairly straightforward; but in a TAC list where you don't know you're playing Wraiths beforehand, and especially if your opponent sensibly uses terrain to shield them from the worst of the fire, there's a good chance you're just out of luck.

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Morollan
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#22 » Aug 29 2014 03:04

Rate of Fire is definitely the way to go with Wraiths. I usually play Dark Eldar and I have rarely seen Wraiths make it into combat. A storm of splinter fire takes down the Wraiths and once they are dead, darklight weapons take out the Destroyer Lord.

A Tau army should be able to achieve similar, if not better, rates of fire, with the added bonus that most of the Tau weaponry will be wounding more frequently than my poison fire.

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Myrdin
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#23 » Aug 29 2014 03:42

Well..... the other thing is just tell your friend to cool down a bit - no i mean it, since i believe you said he plays this list at a 1000 points game ?
In such a small format as far as I am concerned that is not a friendly list (taking account the flier as well) and though this game is competitive whats the point of playing repeatedly against that person when he pummels you every single time, not even caring.

The thing and main problem of our army is - we have zero melee that is actually worth a hing.
Ive seen a brood of hormogants with poison tear Wraiths to shred while making them stuck in prolonged combat. Similar with ork boys squads.
Anything that has numbers and good volume of attacks, no matter the S or AP.
We aint got that .....because hey ! Lets nerf the Kroot ! Lets take away the extra attack, by giving them a two handed weapon, which is one of the most useless, stupid rules in this whole game (it does literally NOTHING to benefit the user.... sigh.... good old Fantasy, was this the case you would get +2 to S at least).

Id suggest to tell your friend to not be a hygenic cleanser and limit the wraiths to a unit of 3, considering its just a 1K game like that.
The other thing you might consider is, keep a blob of 20+10 Kroot + hounds around.
They are fairly cheap, can shoot a little but as far as a sacrificial unit goes just toss em in as meat shield and tar pit the hell out of the Wraiths - But you will need Ethereal for this to grant them Stubborn through his invocation. The wraith have high S but very few attacks. Just use the Kroot as meat shield and shoot everything else in his army to cinders.

OR.... there is also the option to run Farsight Allies commander with fusion blades. (But you will still need the Stubborn from Ethereal as your guys WILL drop like flies) Put him in the Kroot blob, and let him pile in (don't let him go in the first wave though, he must not be in base contact, but has to stay within 3" in order to attack). This would add killines (S8 attacks that Blind - and Wraiths are just I2 so that should be rather nasty).

SpaceCowboy
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#24 » Aug 29 2014 04:28

Myridin,

good point on the Kroot meatshield. Thing is the whipcoils reduce my I to 1 so he usually culls quite a bit in the first round. I do have about 50 Kroot so I'll give it a go.

I do feel my mate has the right to go all out in his list. I quite enjoy the challenge. The 3+ invulnerable save is just so impervious to tactics or strategem, just one big dose of NOPE. Curious to see how these will fare in their next codex!

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Myrdin
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#25 » Aug 29 2014 06:26

Good luck ;)

Just don't forget 3 things:
*GET the Ethereal for the Stubborn, or he WILL break you in that first round and run them down (unless lot of luck and wiffed rolls are involved)
**The Whip Coils affect only models in Base To Base (i really do think this, but i might be wrong and it just affects enemy unit, no matter the models in BTB contact), so unless all of them have it (which i don't see often when facing wraiths, its usually just one guy with the coils) you should be fine.
***Just make sure you position the kroot in front, and Hounds behind. They got 2A each (unlike Kroot) so you want them to stick around longer.

Hope it all goes well and you get your well deserved victory !

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Mauler
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#26 » Sep 03 2014 11:59

SpaceCowboy wrote:n 3 turns I managed to kill 4 of them. 3+ invulnerable save is such a *$/=M%@. (if I missed a rule that bypasses these, please do tell!)



Unfortunately you didn't miss anything and the 3++ is a MATT WARD SPECIAL. He's departed GW this year so the next codex should ease up on that lunacy a lil' bit.

3++ on every S6 jump model in the unit for less than 40pts each, jeez.

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Ell'ran
Shas'Vre
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#27 » Sep 03 2014 03:50

I played a 500 point game vs Necrons with my Tau once and brought a weird list. His list was something like 2 Wraiths, the AV 13 transport thingy, a lord and 2 units of warriors.

I brought 2 units of Fire Warriors, a squad of shield drones, and a commander with more shield drones and:
2x Fusion, Vectored Retro Thrusters, Shield Generator, Iridium, Onager, and probably something else, I don't quite remember.

The Commander deepstruck and blew up the transport turn 2, got charged by wraiths and killed one on overwatch and punched the other one with the Onager. Then he proceeded to charge a Warrior squad, swept them, then him and his merry unit of shield drones went and continued to punch the rest of the army to death. I think i lost maybe 2 or 3 shield drones all game.

I don't know if that setup will work for you, or if I just got lucky, but having the 4+ invul on the drones does come in quite handy, especially when you have a whole unit of them. And the Commander's ability to Hit and Run is not to be underestimated either.

Edit- If you don't want the Shield Generator on the Shas'o, the Stimulant Injector is a good alternative.

SpaceCowboy
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#28 » Sep 04 2014 02:53

Myrdin wrote:Good luck ;)
**The Whip Coils affect only models in Base To Base (i really do think this, but i might be wrong and it just affects enemy unit, no matter the models in BTB contact), so unless all of them have it (which i don't see often when facing wraiths, its usually just one guy with the coils) you should be fine.
Hope it all goes well and you get your well deserved victory !


Yeah, so he does bring whip coils on all of the wraiths :dead:

We went at it again yesterday. He had 6 wraiths and a Scarab Walker (me thinks its called) and some infantry. I had a commander, 2 bodygaurds and 6 shield drones, 3 broadsides, hammerhead and fire warriors. I laid into the wraiths for 2 turns with everything, earning 1 grand kill. He charged a unit of fire warriors who broke on a roll of 11. Next turn he just managed to charge my commander and bodyguards. I killed one wraith with the Onager Gauntlet but lost the combat. My suits then broke on a roll of 12 and got swept.

I tend to position my overwatching units quite well but it's become hilariously pointless. Never once managed to score a wound with something like 30 fire warriors and 3 suits.

The Kroot meatshield is up next Thurday.

One day, one day!

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Morollan
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#29 » Sep 04 2014 04:20

SpaceCowboy wrote:I tend to position my overwatching units quite well but it's become hilariously pointless. Never once managed to score a wound with something like 30 fire warriors and 3 suits.


That's just bad luck, pure and simple. Not much anyone can do about that other than hope the dice are kinder in future.

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Mauler
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#30 » Sep 04 2014 04:44

SpaceCowboy wrote:We went at it again yesterday. He had 6 wraiths and a Scarab Walker (me thinks its called) and some infantry.


The walker is most likely a Triarch Stalker - fairly substantial ground-based spider-lookin' thing? The only other thing that comes close is a Tomb/Canoptek Spyder which is smaller, doesn't touch the ground and can produce scarab swarms.


Good luck, keep the reports a-comin' :D

por'el vior'la Kais

Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#31 » Sep 05 2014 12:14

I have never really struggled with wraiths. To any weapon with an AP worse then 3 they go down just as easy as two marines, (easier if you have strength 8). My mate always uses them but they have never really made it in to combat. They do however soak up a lot of fire, but then again they also soak up a lot of points. However, sometimes he puts a destroyer lord upfront with a 2+ armour save, so now al my fire is even more ineffective. No problem you say? Shoot the ap 2? Too bad he will just look out sir onto the 3+ invurneable dudes behind him! There is literally no efficient way to get rid of this unit. All I can do now is fire even more strength 5 at it, killing a 3 wounds Sv 2+ model and then killing an entire squad (hope he doesn't come back). For once in my life I actually wished I had more str. 5 in my army.

SpaceCowboy
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#32 » Sep 05 2014 03:10

Mauler wrote:
The walker is most likely a Triarch Stalker - fairly substantial ground-based spider-lookin' thing? The only other thing that comes close is a Tomb/Canoptek Spyder which is smaller, doesn't touch the ground and can produce scarab swarms.



Yes I think that's the thingamajig. It was actually pretty weak as it only had 2 heavy gauss cannons which were assault1 or something.

I'll be writing up a wee bit of a battle report next match, just to check if we are doing things right. We are probably not doing things right. But it's a blast :crafty:

por'el vior'la Kais wrote:. They do however soak up a lot of fire, but then again they also soak up a lot of points.


Kais, I think that the wraiths are actually pretty cheap for what they do. For 270points you get a 3++ shield which always strikes first. Especially the firepower they soak up, as you say, is just bonkers.

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Bitterman
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#33 » Sep 05 2014 03:16

SpaceCowboy wrote:
Mauler wrote:Triarch Stalker


Yes I think that's the thingamajig. It was actually pretty weak as it only had 2 heavy gauss cannons which were assault1 or something.


I'm not sure, but I seem to remember there being more to it than that. I think that it has some crazy targeting rule whereby, if it hits its target when it shoots, all further shooting that turn at the same target counts as twinlinked, not entirely unlike Markerlights except arguably better. Something like that, anyway... I certainly remember there was some reason why I decided they were high priority for death, when I played against them.

SpaceCowboy
Shas
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#34 » Sep 05 2014 03:20

Yes! I was thinking there was something more to it. During the game I was able to lure the thing away from the rest of his army so it didn't really come into question.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#35 » Sep 05 2014 04:42

Triarch Stalkers have the Heat Ray, which is a formidable Melta weapon, and twin-link any subsequent firing at the same target. They're nasty, but fairly fragile.

My main problem with the 3++ is that it reduces the game to one of pure dice. How well do my dice do versus your's? If you never roll less than a three, you've won. If you roll a lot of 2s, I've won.

Target priority doesn't matter as you throw everything and anything at them. Delegating the proper AP weapons to them doesn't matter. It's simply a matter of spamming dice and hoping they fail.

I've had a lot of trouble with my Guard against Thunderwolves because of this. High-Strength weaponry is designed to have a low volume but great AP to back it up, which a 3++ renders irrelevant. Anything light enough to spam struggles to get the volume of Wounds needed. (I once fired 72 Lasgun shots at Thunderwolves and scored a pitiful but statistical 6 Wounds with were all saved. Two Demolishers killed two Wolves.)

Thunderwolves are worse due to getting S10 AP2 with five Attacks on the charge, as well as being T5. They automatically Penetrate most vehicle's Rear Armour, and at least Glance tougher ones like Necron vehicles and Russ Siege Tanks. Said swarm of 30 Guardsmen that put out those shots were killed to a man from the Hammer of Wrath and number of attacks. It's ludicrous that a unit be so point-and-click.

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Ell'ran
Shas'Vre
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#36 » Sep 05 2014 08:45

It's because their shields are big enough to protect their mounts.

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