Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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TheCoolShark900
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#37 » Oct 10 2014 11:12

IMHO pathfinders may actually do it. A unit with 3 Ion Rifles can overcharge (hopefully not getting hot) and Insta-Kill them. Against a unit of three if the blasts do not scatter the you'll get 9 wounds which will wound on a 2+ forcing roughly 7 3+ saves. This should kill 2 or 3 of the Wraiths. Then, they can wander off and markerlight the rest of the enemy army (on another turn). As well as this the rest of the unit could still markerlight the wraiths for another unit to kill off the last one.
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Zelnik
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#38 » Feb 03 2015 04:14

Fusion blasters do not kill wraiths instantly. They have t5 now.

Best advantage against them are the following:

1: double missile suits, shasvre with cyclic ion and a missile Gives you between 10 and 13 s7 shots or a handy blast template.

2: r'varna. Since they are now very bulky, every hit counts as s 7 ap4 2 hits.

3. Submunition hammerhead. It may be only a 3 to wound but with longstrike you have bs5.

4. missilesides. Drown them in wounds.

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Bitterman
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#39 » Feb 03 2015 04:30

Zelnik wrote:Fusion blasters do not kill wraiths instantly. They have t5 now.


Of course they have. :roll: Being good enough to take on entire armies on their own obviously wasn't enough. They clearly needed to be even harder to kill!

akkristor
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#40 » Feb 03 2015 04:48

Bitterman wrote:
Zelnik wrote:Fusion blasters do not kill wraiths instantly. They have t5 now.


Of course they have. :roll: Being good enough to take on entire armies on their own obviously wasn't enough. They clearly needed to be even harder to kill!


Darkstrider and Ion-Rifle equipped Pathfinders can still insta-death them. Drop their T5 to T4, and Strength 8 from the Ion Rifles will OHKO. Plus it's a blast, so a chance to kill more than one per shot.
My goal is not to win, but to not lose the battle.

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Kael'yn
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#41 » Feb 03 2015 05:06

Zelnik wrote:Fusion blasters do not kill wraiths instantly. They have t5 now.

Best advantage against them are the following:

1: double missile suits, shasvre with cyclic ion and a missile Gives you between 10 and 13 s7 shots or a handy blast template.

2: r'varna. Since they are now very bulky, every hit counts as s 7 ap4 2 hits.

3. Submunition hammerhead. It may be only a 3 to wound but with longstrike you have bs5.

4. missilesides. Drown them in wounds.


See my posts there: http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?p=289843#p289843
Double missile suits are not listed, because they can provide an average of 1.00 wounds for more than 140points per wounds (with the Canoptek formation and the 4+ reanimation).
R'varna is too costy to be tied in CC by these beasts
Submunitions have too few shots.
The only way to reliably take them is massed fire (Missilesides or our cheap S5 shots)

akkristor wrote:Darkstrider and Ion-Rifle equipped Pathfinders can still insta-death them. Drop their T5 to T4, and Strength 8 from the Ion Rifles will OHKO. Plus it's a blast, so a chance to kill more than one per shot.

Darktrider is a nice addition (like against Nurgle marines) to help with S5 shots. The cost of ion rifle is too high with the randomness of blast to be effective IMHO. But Darkstrider in a large unit of FW with an Etheral nearby (or maybe a fireblade) can become dangerous to soften the wraiths.

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tekkblade
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#42 » Mar 03 2015 02:23

akkristor wrote:Darkstrider and Ion-Rifle equipped Pathfinders can still insta-death them. Drop their T5 to T4, and Strength 8 from the Ion Rifles will OHKO. Plus it's a blast, so a chance to kill more than one per shot.


Unfortunately double toughness doesn't ID necrons anymore, it just lowers the results of the RAP roll by 1 now.

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#43 » Mar 03 2015 03:15

tekkblade wrote:
akkristor wrote:Darkstrider and Ion-Rifle equipped Pathfinders can still insta-death them. Drop their T5 to T4, and Strength 8 from the Ion Rifles will OHKO. Plus it's a blast, so a chance to kill more than one per shot.


Unfortunately double toughness doesn't ID necrons anymore, it just lowers the results of the RAP roll by 1 now.
True, their reanimation protocols are reduced by 1, but they are still vulnerable to instant death. They do not have Eternal Warrior. If they fail an invulnerable, and then fail the RP roll, they will instantly die.

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tekkblade
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#44 » Mar 03 2015 04:05

You're right. I forgot they had multiple wounds. If they make the RAP roll they come back with only one wound right?

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Das'Kyman
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#45 » Mar 03 2015 04:20

As I understand it (Somebody correct me if I am wrong) a successful RP roll will negate the wound in its entirety. So it would either take No wounds, or it would die instantly, depending on the roll.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#46 » Mar 03 2015 04:43

tekkblade wrote:If they make the RAP roll they come back with only one wound right?


If they make their roll, the wound is negated. RAP is basically FNP in every respect. So if a Wraith had 2 wounds, and made both it's RAPs then it would still have 2 wounds. The fun thing is that Necrons can modify the roll needed, but never better then 4+. ID weapons just give it a -1 modifier.

Czar Ziggy

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Dubey
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#47 » Mar 04 2015 10:55

If they're really getting you down and you don't feel that massed firepower is working, you could always invest in an assassin. They can ignore armour and invulnerable saves.

akkristor
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#48 » Mar 04 2015 11:01

Czar Ziggy wrote:
tekkblade wrote:If they make the RAP roll they come back with only one wound right?


If they make their roll, the wound is negated. RAP is basically FNP in every respect. So if a Wraith had 2 wounds, and made both it's RAPs then it would still have 2 wounds. The fun thing is that Necrons can modify the roll needed, but never better then 4+. ID weapons just give it a -1 modifier.

Czar Ziggy



Most necron abilities that boost RAP give their RAP value a modifier, but ID gives the roll a -1 modifier, not their RAP value. RAP can never get better than a 4+, If something with a 4+ RAP gets hit with a weapon that would cause Instant death, they would need to get a 5 or better on the die. The die roll is given a -1 modifier, not their RAP.
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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#49 » Jan 23 2016 04:48

I've been researching these forums for ways of beating up Necrons and was very interested in this discussion around killing Wraiths.

I've only looked at the "Gamers Edition" of the Necron Codex (rules only, ePub book) but something worth noting is that wraiths do not have the Reanimation Protocol special ability.

I suspect this means all the math discussed above just doubled in effectiveness (assuming a 4+ RAP roll)?
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#50 » Jan 23 2016 05:02

SomeTauGuy wrote:I've been researching these forums for ways of beating up Necrons and was very interested in this discussion around killing Wraiths.

I've only looked at the "Gamers Edition" of the Necron Codex (rules only, ePub book) but something worth noting is that wraiths do not have the Reanimation Protocol special ability.

I suspect this means all the math discussed above just doubled in effectiveness (assuming a 4+ RAP roll)?


But as a quick note, they can gain that rule through the Canoptek Harvest formation. The spyder in the Formation must select Reanimation as it's special rule, and the Wraiths must be within 6" to gain the benefits.

Czar Ziggy

P.S. And if run in the Decurrion Army set-up, that roll will be a 4+ because of the Decurrion special rules.

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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#51 » Jan 28 2016 04:45

Darkstrider in a gunrig can one-shot the Spyder. It has T6 which he reduces to T5, and then the S10 AP1 railgun bypasses its armor, reduces its RP to 5+, and removes all 3 wounds if not stopped. Since it's twinlinked and he's BS5, you have a 54% chance of success per shooting phase. Bringing the gunfort (3x gunrigs fired together) bumps you up to 90% chance.

So then it becomes a question of dealing with the actual wraiths. There is no reason to bother with AP against them, since they have both 3+ armor and 3+ invul. Therefore, using plasma on crisis is strictly worse than missiles or ion. One unbuffed S7 attack deals (1/2 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/6 to bypass invul) = 0.139 wounds in expectation. A CIB suit has 6 shots for 0.83 wounds, and a missile suit has 4 shots for 0.56 wounds. With proper markerlight support we can buff that to 5/6 to hit, giving 0.231 wounds per shot (2xCIB 1.39 wounds, 2xMissile 0.93 wounds).

A double-weapon suit costs roughly the same as 6 strike team fire warriors. Without MLs, they deal 0.083 wounds per shot. At long range that's 0.5 wounds for the team (hence 1 wound at close range). That's slightly less wounds than the missile crisis suit, for slightly more points, as slightly less range.

We can buff both units. We can twinlink the crisis shots through a buff'vre for less points than the CIB suit costs. At BS3, this improves the number of wounds per S7 shot to (1/2 + 1/2*1/2)*(5/6)*(2/6)=0.208, and 0.27 wounds at BS5. Ethereal+Fireblade costs a fair deal but allows your fire warriors to shoot 4 times, so the team of six strikers can put out 2 wounds using rapid fire. You're likely bringing more than one unit of them and the Fireblade buffs only one, so consider dropping the Fireblade for more fire warriors.


One idea I have been toying with lately is a taking a Hunter Cadre, choosing Breachers and putting them in a Devilfish together with Ethereal and Fireblade. The Ethereal can be allied in through a CAD or the Command slot of the Hunter Contingent. The Fireblade is there to allow them to run before shooting. It gives your S6 shots a threat range of 17+D6": Devilfish moves 6", Breachers pop out and move 6", fireblade allows them to run D6" and then they use their 5" shooting profile. This gets pricey. But putting all of this gives you 30 shots at S6 on the turn you exit the Devilfish. These shots deal in expectation 3.33 wounds without markerlights, 5.55 with. When they inevitably charge you next turn, you deal another 1.11 wounds. As noted, the price for this is steep (especially since Hunter Cadre is expensive in itself) but has the potential to wipe out a wraith unit in one turn.

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Jewelfox
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#52 » May 07 2016 09:08

Unicornsilovethem wrote:One idea I have been toying with lately is a taking a Hunter Cadre, choosing Breachers and putting them in a Devilfish together with Ethereal and Fireblade. The Ethereal can be allied in through a CAD or the Command slot of the Hunter Contingent. The Fireblade is there to allow them to run before shooting. It gives your S6 shots a threat range of 17+D6": Devilfish moves 6", Breachers pop out and move 6", fireblade allows them to run D6" and then they use their 5" shooting profile. This gets pricey. But putting all of this gives you 30 shots at S6 on the turn you exit the Devilfish. These shots deal in expectation 3.33 wounds without markerlights, 5.55 with. When they inevitably charge you next turn, you deal another 1.11 wounds. As noted, the price for this is steep (especially since Hunter Cadre is expensive in itself) but has the potential to wipe out a wraith unit in one turn.


The downside, of course, is that wraiths have a threat range of 12+2D6", so you don't have much margin for error. The other downside is that each wraith only costs about as much as a minimum breacher squad or ethereal on its own, so altogether you're committing more points to these things than they cost, and on top of that this strategy requires good dice rolls (and gives your opponent a good chance at a victory point).

In my last game I played against Necrons, I had an Iontide use its heavy blast against the Immortals, before tying up literally an entire Canoptek Harvest because my opponent kept throwing models at it. When the scarabs didn't do the job, it sent in the wraiths, and its spyder just sat there regrowing the scarabs and not doing anything else. It took my partner awhile to realize that was exactly what I wanted it to do.

I think turning some high-value Necron infantry into a crater, before charging a minimum unit of wraiths and keeping them locked up for the whole game, is at least not a terrible use of a single battlesuit. ^^; Especially considering how much damage those wraiths can inflict if left unchecked. At best, you can use psychological warfare elements as well; your opponent may throw additional forces at the Riptide, not realizing just how durable they are (like mine did), or you might even be able to kite them.

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nic
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#53 » May 07 2016 10:06

Unicornsilovethem wrote:
One idea I have been toying with lately is a taking a Hunter Cadre, choosing Breachers and putting them in a Devilfish together with Ethereal and Fireblade. The Ethereal can be allied in through a CAD or the Command slot of the Hunter Contingent. The Fireblade is there to allow them to run before shooting. It gives your S6 shots a threat range of 17+D6": Devilfish moves 6", Breachers pop out and move 6", fireblade allows them to run D6" and then they use their 5" shooting profile. This gets pricey. But putting all of this gives you 30 shots at S6 on the turn you exit the Devilfish. These shots deal in expectation 3.33 wounds without markerlights, 5.55 with. When they inevitably charge you next turn, you deal another 1.11 wounds. As noted, the price for this is steep (especially since Hunter Cadre is expensive in itself) but has the potential to wipe out a wraith unit in one turn.


Why not just put your Hunter Cadre in a Dawn Blade contingent and use plain old S5 AP5 massed pulse fire? With re-rolls to wound you will get work done. Cheapest high-mobility delivery system for this are probably Piranha, especially if you have a Drone Net VX1-0 backing them up and longer range shots from your troops will still get the re-rolls to wound. Supporting fire from 12" away if he goes after your annoying skimmers should finish the job.

In a hunter cadre those Piranha have a threat range that is incredible due to Ambushes & Feints. As always they make great blocking models and can really inhibit the movement of even Wraiths by their physical size on the table.

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Jewelfox
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Re: Necron Canoptek Wraiths, oh heavens

Post#54 » May 07 2016 04:27

nic wrote:Why not just put your Hunter Cadre in a Dawn Blade contingent and use plain old S5 AP5 massed pulse fire? With re-rolls to wound you will get work done. Cheapest high-mobility delivery system for this are probably Piranha, especially if you have a Drone Net VX1-0 backing them up and longer range shots from your troops will still get the re-rolls to wound. Supporting fire from 12" away if he goes after your annoying skimmers should finish the job.

In a hunter cadre those Piranha have a threat range that is incredible due to Ambushes & Feints. As always they make great blocking models and can really inhibit the movement of even Wraiths by their physical size on the table.


You'll want to keep in mind, of course, the FAQ nerf to the Piranha formation. >_>b This sounds like an interesting plan though!

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