Top Tier Terror

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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DaceKhan
Shas
Posts: 42

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#11 » Dec 02 2014 02:16

Personally I rate Tau just under the God-tier armies (being Eldar, Daemons, and Imperium), for each of those can essentially form a deathstar from invis/shrouding fairly cheaply and still have the killing and scoring power to dominate their games. Tau sits just under them with the likes of necrons. This is definitely not to say tau cannot win tournaments, for as results show, it still happens (albeit with very good lists).

1. Weak scoring units:
Fire warriors are for me, a liability, they are ok stats, but they need an ethereal or fireblade around to make them stay, so now they are taking a HQ slot as well. If you're getting an ethereal you might as well get at least 2 firewarrior squads, and you'll have to take other units to give them markerlight support and anti-vehicle and anti-CC defense. See where this is going? If I'm playing competitive, it's hard to justify FW's, because they require a lot from a list just to stand their ground. Having 6 man squads in Dfishes is what I did in 5th, and it's where I'm probably heading back to, although Dfishes are still too overpriced :(

I'm starting to adore my kroot, they need a leader around to make them stay (most of the time), but it's not as much of a point sink, and sniper rounds are very useful.

All this being said, being a troop choice, only a bonus these days as everything can score.

2. Lack of Psykers
Someone mentioned Kroot shamans, the dream is they one day bring back the Elder Kroot Shapers! Armed with witchblades and could cast minor spells, I would love to see these guys leading my kroot. Alas, tis an unlikely goal.

3. Lack of Anti-Knight
I think I've had my say about my the tactical deficiency of Tau vs Knights in past posts so I won't say much. But I will say, everywhere that I know, Knights are a huge meta problem, any army short of a full necron scarab army has trouble dealing with adamantine lance. I'm starting to see tournament limitations on the amount of knights in lists, not sure its the best solution, but it might help.
Until all are one

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Vay
Shas'Ui
Posts: 820

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#12 » Dec 02 2014 02:22

- Tau have never been the worst codex. (Even in the start of 6th when we were on about as last a leg as you can get)

- The player is often the weakest link in a Tau army. Not our codex.

- In my META, Tau are one of the most hated and feared races to fight. Demons also sit on top of the skull pile of hate and fear. (Players really make these two so very deadly)

- In my META, there is no "auto" win codex. Even knights.

- The only things I have ever seen that are broken for us VS Psykers are things that are wrong with the powers. (So can not be fixed by us taking a Psyker)
-- Iron Arm on MC's
-- Demon summoning (Really really broken)
-- Power funneling

- Everything can more or less allie with anything. So you can take what ever "patch" you want to fight META shift. (I like the look of assassins)

I am Tau. My collection and focus is Tau. I have all sorts of allies because I am a sucker for pretty models, but on the field I am loath to take less blue for anything else. I never feel like my Codex is what fails me in battle. If I lose; it is to a good game, rock/paper/scissors army issue, or dice hatred. 3rd - 7th have shot us different META back bones to build against, but we have the tools to adapt and enforce the Greater Good.

- Owning enough Tau is also helpful, matching your models to your play style and meta is key, and learning how to play them for every point they are worth is what wins you battles.
- So far I have seen no "fail Codex" (All "human factions" I consider in the same "group" so even sisters can win). Every one of them can be played very strongly by a skilled and knowledgeable player.
Shas'O Kais Vay Shone’nan

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nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 628

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#13 » Dec 03 2014 05:40

I am going to chip in here even though I have no interest in even playing in the sorts of tournaments that "the internets" are talking about with top tier discussions :D

Having played in one tournament and watched my son play in another I can see a couple of reasons why Tau are still a powerhouse
1. Our codex is strong and flexible with multiple good options and strong internal synergy
2. We have a distinct move-shoot-move playstyle which takes some mastering but is very effective on the table
3. 3/4 of opponents simply do not understand how to play against Tau

That last point may seem contentious but I have seen multiple tournament opponents clearly fail to understand the way that Tau use movement or comprehend the glue (Ethereals, markerlights, Buff'O) that holds the Tau army together and stops it turning into a ramshackle sub-par mess. Even though Tau armies may not be winning major tournaments a lot of the 'Tau are OP' comments will not go away because if you do not know how to deal with them they can certainly seem that way as they table you.

Learning how to play Tau is not that easy and playing them like any other army will result in disappointing failure. Fortunately we have ATT to help with that.

You can build a strong Tau list at pretty much any points level and you do not have to resort to spam or death-star gimmicks to do it. At certain points levels some other codexes can build either a spam or a death-star gimmick list that is hard for anyone to handle, at the particular points level of some major US tournaments this has been analysed and discussed endlessly online and these are the top tier lists. You can spam the 'best' units from the Tau codex to compete with these lists but really the Tau codex was not designed to work that way so against a list from a codex better suited to spam/gimmick lists and an opponent who actually understands how to play against Tau it will be an uphill task to win major tournaments.

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Ro'Kunas
Shas
Posts: 109

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#14 » Dec 09 2014 03:34

Ah!! How I love this community! I deviated from my normal obsession with checking the replies daily, to see what ATT Alumni had to say. Instead,I waited more than week, and then read all of this in one sitting! So great! Gave me more ammunition for my dispute with my meta!

Real quick, got to throw a few shout outs to y'all...

2. Lack of Psykers
We have the games best psykers in WH40k!
And they are called Markerlights.


This is my new favorite catch phrase. I will put it on Tshirts. All Hail Shas'ui Vash! Great insight!I'm not sure if I would've EVER come up with this. It makes perfect sense and barely leaves me gloating. Killer Farsight Squad too!

- 2) I've never struggled to kill a Knight. No Tau player should. Killing 3+ Knights, yes that's a problem, but all armies struggle there... so that shouldn't be a ding against our "top tier" status.


Excellent Shas'La reconjsh! Like Isaid, because of a recent business sabbatical (and finishing up some basing), I've yet to face any I.K.s in the field. But I am not going into it weak or fearful in the least, due primarily to posts like yours around this site.
Oh,and the way to get two Talismans is to bring a C.A. Farsight Enclave and the Firebase Support Cadre (as a F.E. formation) and give a Talisman to each of the Riptides. VERY situational obviously, better to mix it up with the Tau Codex, but I'm sure it might seem like a good strategy when facing Grey Knights, Eldar Farseer Fanclub, or the Flying Circus (or any Chaos/Demon list)

I am so glad that practically all commanders on here intuitively grasp what I'm trying to encourage.
Shas'Ui Nevar,
I play nearly exclusively as Farsight Enclaves with a heavy suit focus (as any self respecting Enclave would) and I rarely lose games that don't include multiple Imperial Knights.
and
I am always in the Tau corner, even when my numbers are depleted and moral is at it's lowest.

Loyalty distilled to a tincture of Valor.

And Shas'Ui Vay,
I am Tau. My collection and focus is Tau.
This is now the Mantra I recite & repeat before I go to bed, until my girlfriend hits me. Hard. I can't help it. I love the simple but strong implication. Impressive.
Your statement of
The player is often the weakest link in a Tau army.
or
matching your models to your play style and meta is key, and learning how to play them for every point they are worth is what wins you battles.
seems to resonate or,maybe reflect the frustrations some players seem to have when facing Tau, or playing as Tau the first few times.
Along with what Shas'Saal nic says
3/4 of opponents simply do not understand how to play against Tau
I believe this is part of what makes them so exciting to play.

I am thankful that I'm getting better and better.:)
Thanks to all the others who posted! I'm honored to hear such counsel.
Mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy
Puretide

Warlord711
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#15 » Dec 20 2014 08:01

I posted this in: Combating Knight Titans and their new formation. It actually works pretty well against a lot of things.

If you really want to be a jerk use:

Foc:1 (Tau)
Aun'va
Commander with 2 missile pods, target lock, Stimulant Injector, Irridum Armor, Purtide Engram Neurochip and 2 marker drones.

Foc:2 (Tau or Farsight)
Commander with 2 missile pods, target lock, drone controller, and 2 marker drones
Commander with 2 missile pods, target lock, 2 marker drones and whatever other suit system tickles your fancy.

Add an Ageis with ammo dump and the previously mentioned tank traps.

Mix, stir, and watch almost every Super-Heavy become mobile terrain.

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O'Shaska
Shas'Ui
Posts: 335

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#16 » Dec 21 2014 03:49

1. Weak Scoring Units
The Tau way of war focuses not on capturing and holding objectives, but first eliminating the enemy. Once that is done, you can move on an objective unopposed. We have the firepower to remove enemy units from objectives, and create threat zones against further attempts at capture. Unless you're playing maelstrom, you can afford to spend a turn neutralizing your opponent's guns/fast movers, then concentrate on the units holding objectives. Enemies holding objectives are enemies not charging us in close combat :D .
2. Lack of Psykers
This is not a big deal. If you encounter a psyker who is causing problems, then move your big guns to eliminate him so he can't cast again. Playing Tau is all about resource management and threat identification. If there's a psyker on the board that poses a greater threat than, say, a fast mover, position your force out of range of the fast mover and focus down the psyker.
3. Lack of Anti-Knight.
Hilariously enough, the best defense we have against Knights are Fire Warriors with EMP grenades. If you get the charge with a unit of 12 fire warriors, on average, you would lose two from the knight's attacks (give or take). Then you'd have roughly 5 hits and 4 damaging rolls back. The knight will absolutely squash that unit with its stomps but you just stripped 2/3 of its hull points in one fight subphase. If that doesn't cut it for you, then deep striking melta suits as mentioned before are a brilliant way to focus down a knight. If you have hammerheads in front and a sunforge team behind it, suddenly the knight is forced to prioritize where its ion shield goes. Bonus points if you take longstrike.
Unity is a rock against the tides of conflict.

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ShampocalypseWOW
Shas
Posts: 14

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#17 » Jul 31 2015 02:16

I like the Tau optimism going on in this thread. Tau are by far not the cheesiest (at least anymore?), but most versitile? We are pretty versitile, but lack some key options, like close combat ability. Tau are definitely the best when it comes to maneuverability, and I think most players, Tau players especially, underestimate this attribute. Another key component of Tau are the guns, which are pretty badass. The best guns? Maybe, but certainly enough to get the job done.

If you are not runnjng combined arms, you're gonna have a bad time because Tau are simply dependent on it. We are also probably the best at it, so you WILL combine your damn arms! What does this mean? It means that you need to spread your points out on a variety of units that have a variety of abilities that they can bring to support the others. If you have a unit that is not supporting another in some way, you're either using it wrong or you don't need it. Every unit should have a purpose on the battlefield, regardless of your enemy. They should also have a secondary purpose in case they can't or don't need to do their primary purpose. For instance a simple Kroot squad. Add a hound and you can outflank them to take out entrenched heavy support or grab out of the way objectives or get linebreaker. If there are no enemy units worth outflanking or no objectives to grab or toop much pressure on other stuff, use them as a screen.

I have seen Tau players with great lists lose to others with crappy lists simply because the Tau player deployed poorly and didn't use his units to support each other.6
Sham'WO

tehlegend
Shas'Ui
Posts: 524

Re: Top Tier Terror

Post#18 » Jul 31 2015 04:27

Tau infantry are not the hammer or anvil type of units you typically see. They don't have the staying power of marines and necrons, but they also are not fodder that dies enmasse like guardsmen and orks. Honestly, I consider them great for being equipped and priced appropriately to do just what we need them to.

Their weaknesses have been covered fairly comprehensively, but consider their advantages. Their starting minimum cost is dirt cheap, and if you consider them a tax for devilfish at the very worst the vehicle you get outperforms nearly every other transport in the game, barring the wave serpent and land raider.

If you have a bit more faith in them, maxing their numbers only nets just over 100 points, and when you look at how the typical marine player kits out a full tactical squad, typically adding in 1 special weapon, 1 heavy, and 1 extra sergeant upgrade or 2... You're looking at marines typically being twice the cost. 24 fire warriors vs roughly 10 marines for the points looks a lot more attractive for the Tau player in comparison, especially since we have a few tricks to ensure we engage on our terms.

Personally, 1 squad of fire warriors with an ethereal, dark strider, and pathfinder cohorts outflanking with positional relays annihilates space marines, not to mention lesser threats, and with guns like these, there is never a situation where I cannot reach the opponent. Ensuring I get a full barrage of pulse fire, usually triple tapping with the majority of my squads, is nothing to sneeze at. Even most vehicles can't hold up since this will usually target back armor 10.


Knights have been covered by everyone else already so its a moot point. Same with psykers. Honestly with some investment and planning, fire warriors and pathfinders both are very versatile. They're both so underestimated because of their survivability, but we have great wys of minimizing and eliminating enemy threats to ensure it need only be an afterthought.

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