Clever Ork hordes

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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Kael'yn
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#19 » Jan 05 2015 11:02

coldwind wrote:generally we play annihilation so killing is the only major goal, though we often add secondary circumstances like line breaker and slay the warlord to mix it up a little,, i have been trying to get a relic scenario going so that is also likely to happen but it will almost certainly be annihilation.


Anihilation is boring... And favors Orks or Nids (difficult to wipe out 30 models meatshield units before they run into your lines and kill you in melee). They can assault multiple units loosing the +1 A, but then are assured to tie you in a desperate fight.
The Maelstrom missions (or even the Eternal war ones with objectives to grab) are better balanced. I lost a game against Nids (with GK) and won against Necrons (with Tau), just because the most mobile and/or resourceful army grab objectives in the right time even if its ranks are severly depleted.

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coldwind
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#20 » Jan 05 2015 11:06

Anihilation is boring... And favors Orks or Nids (difficult to wipe out 30 models meatshield units before they run into your lines and kill you in melee).


Very true and i dislike it because i have played it so much and can count how many times i have won on my fingers, which is why I have been trying to get one going. but anihilation is quickest to start so it often goes first.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Kael'yn
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#21 » Jan 05 2015 11:14

coldwind wrote:anihilation is quickest to start so it often goes first.


Huh ?
Other missions starts just need to put objectives on the table. Takes 1-2 minutes at best.
I can see that anihilation is easiest to understand and play (not need to look for objectives, ...) but not very entertaining. Specially for the one that is wiped out because he realizes on turn 2 that he don't have the guns/men to do the job. And this lead to Deathstars units for more non-fun playing.

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coldwind
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#22 » Jan 05 2015 11:30

I am not sure why annihilation gets to go most but does and even with objectives people often win through overwhelming victory points, or in a few cases wipeout. this is testament to my bad playing style that has lost me most of my games in three years of gaming.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Ell'ran
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#23 » Jan 05 2015 03:39

I used to play with an Ork player a lot, and one of the things i learned is that one of the best ways to neutralize a horde for a few rounds (especially Lootas), is to pin them. Just whittle their unit down to a manageable size and then use any kind of pinning weapon to force leadership tests. I do the same thing against Nid's gaunt swarms after taking out their synapse. It's not 100% effective but it's always an option, and is more reliable than making some of their units run away.

As for your list, it really seems like you are fusion heavy. Is this because you're using the Fusion to take out nobs or other vehicles? I remember reading somewhere on this site that Burst Cannon Piranhas was without a doubt the best way to get S5 down onto the tabletop. Roughly 40 points for 8 S5 shots is nothing to sneeze at. Also it's on a relatively durable frame. If you're having trouble keeping your Piranhas alive vs ranged fire you could look into purchasing a Disruption Pod as well. And while we're on the topic of vehicles, I may have missed it, but if you have a Devilfish, those things can work wonders in keeping your Firewarriors alive. I'm curious though, does your opponent usually use Shootas or Sluggas for their Boyz?

You also may want to leave the Riptide at home, and just take more bodies, if you can. As cool as the riptide is, I don't think that your opponent will have any qualms with throwing an entire unit of Boyz at it just to tie it up. How are the Deffcoptas armed? It might be a little unorthodox, but you may want to consider charging the Deffkoptas in the assault phase with the Riptide if they don't have buzzsaws (I think that's what they're called). You can smash and instant kill them and hopefully run them off the table in the sweep.

Final question, how many SMS are you bringing to the field? SMS sound like they would work wonders with you. Bring them on whatever platform you can.

Edit- Oh yeah, and if you're having problems losing your Piranha or any other units that you really want early, you could always throw them into reserve. I do this with Vespid all the time, the best part about it is that you get to bring them in wherever you want, bad part about it is my dice love 1s and 2s.

Tau'va and good luck!

Doubleedit!- Does your opponent often bring fliers? I just saw that you take the VT on the Riptide.

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coldwind
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#24 » Jan 05 2015 04:03

Thanks for the advice! :P

how many SMS are you bringing to the field? SMS sound like they would work wonders with you.

In terms of missile systems i have one twin-linked on the hammer head and one on the riptide (which is also armed with a heavy burst cannon) and if it counts on its shielded missile drones. i know it isn't a lot but again it is dictated by what i can get hold of.

As for your list, it really seems like you are fusion heavy. Is this because you're using the Fusion to take out nobs or other vehicles?

In terms of being fusion heavy it is usually because I have a few really heavily armed vehicles to contend with and i often assemble miniature by the aesthetic as i enjoy the painting and assembelling as well.

About the riptide. I am bringing all my bodies to the battlefield and am also borrowing a two teams of 8 fire warriors from a friend just to make the points even and even then i am stretching for upgrades like sniper rounds and adding in a unit like a drone squad. so it would be a gesture of futility to leave the riptide at home and free up points for more upgrades than i could get for my army.i might consider ditching a stealth team to free up some points though.



Also me and my friend have finalised the scenario and this is just a way for him to try and get his coveted Stompa out onto the field. it is custom scenario that goes like this:
The Orks are trying to retake a looted munitorum factory that is halfway through making a Stompa, the have to get three parts and bring them to the factory to finish it off and get it running, if he can do this he gets the Stompa, right in the middle of the battlefield, but if a can hold the factory for three turns then he can't get the Stompa and I get 3 victory points.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Jochmann
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#25 » Jan 06 2015 11:36

coldwind wrote:Also me and my friend have finalised the scenario and this is just a way for him to try and get his coveted Stompa out onto the field. it is custom scenario that goes like this:
The Orks are trying to retake a looted munitorum factory that is halfway through making a Stompa, the have to get three parts and bring them to the factory to finish it off and get it running, if he can do this he gets the Stompa, right in the middle of the battlefield, but if a can hold the factory for three turns then he can't get the Stompa and I get 3 victory points.

To get a Stompa for free is an auto-win button in normal games. Even more, when the game is at 1500 points, as a Stompa is on it's own at roughly 1000 points. I think it would be more interesting to make this a two-step scenario:

The first game is basically what you are planning: You are intercepting an Orc convoy, which is carrying the weapons for a Stompa to the Mekyard. Every weapon you can intercept is not availlable to the Stompa in the second game. You could make this game like:
Six trukks carrying the weapons (1: three big shootas + skorcha + twin linked big shoota, 2: Deff kannon, 3: super-gatler, 4: Mega choppa, 5,6: (Bonus) Ammo for gatler, with each ammo truck reaching the Mekyard he may once negate the effect of "whirr click-click", being able to shoot (in the next round, the gun still has to get reloaded)).
All trukks (even those not carrying weapons) may be covered with a tarpaulin for free, counting as not-open, but you don't know, what the trukk is carrying. He has to write a paper, what the truck is carrying and put it folded on the trukk's platform.
He buys his army with normal rules and has to bring his trucks from one small edge of the board to the other, you are deloying with 24" distance to both short edges.
The game should be played at 1000 points, excluding the weapon carrying trukks.
Another option would be, that he has to buy the vehicles carrying the weapons, each weapons stack requiring passenger spaces, thus enabling him to load them on battlewaggons.
If he doesn't have enough vehicles, he could proxy some or arrive in waves.

The second game is your army (1500 points) vs the Stompa (which is only armed with the weapons your opponent managed to bring across the board) plus 800 points of Orcs.


Secondly:
I recommend to exchange the Rail rifles of your pathfinders for Ion rifles
Last edited by Jochmann on Jan 06 2015 12:49, edited 1 time in total.

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coldwind
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#26 » Jan 06 2015 12:29

Ok thank you! That does sound like a much fairer scenario that will be more fun to play as i do know about the stompa being a win game button as i have tried to kill it before, failing miserably every time, that does sound much better! :D
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Ell'ran
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#27 » Jan 06 2015 10:45

Only time i ever killed faced a Stompa I killed it by weakening its shields with missiles and railguns (back in 5th) then dropping Shadowsun behind it and turning it into a big piece of terrain, much to my opponents dismay that it didn't explode and kill Shadowsun.

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ArttesThePerishable
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#28 » Jan 07 2015 08:38

A pretty cheap and simple addition that you may want to consider is getting Darkstrider and attaching him to your largest firewarrior team (maybe even with a buffmander too ;) )

Nothing seems to make my Ork friends more scared than Darkstrider's unit treating them like over muscled and under gunned Astra Militaris troops via his structural analyzer. :P

The sunshark bomber is also a fairly handy terror bomber against Orks, however it must be treated with caution as the vast ammount of Ork shots can easily endanger it. (But on the plus side that's that much less shots going at your more tactical units)

On another note you seem to bring a lot of anti-armor type weapons. It might just be the play style of my Ork friends, but I can often get away with a single fusion blaster and an Onager Gauntlet on my commander as, even when my foe brings lots of armor my firewarrior pulse rifles tend to be adaquately effective. In fact it's been too long since I've played Orks... I miss having a foe where anti-armor is such a low priority :::(

Last side note: I once had an Ork player whining about how superior Kroot were to Orks in melee due to their weapons having AP in close combat. Given, this was only because I was always sure to keep the numbers advantage (about 18 Kroot vs 10 ork boys) and was the one to charge in so that I scored the extra attacks. Because of that battle there isn't an ork player at our local shop who isn't at least a little weary toward the Kroot.
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#29 » Jan 27 2015 05:27

I just started back with my Tau after three years of not playing. I used to have a pretty efficient way to deal with their hordes but you may have to sacrifice some of your army. I will just tell you how I would do it and then maybe you can apply some of these tactics or pick up some of these units.

Without posting my entire list I will try and make this brief. I would use the dual firebase method basically splitting my force in two equal halves with some must have units near the center i.e. pathfinders and crisis suits. I would use two Hammerheads because their submunition round is just great against orks even if it scatters. I would run about 9 crisis suits all with twin linked missile pods and other various weapons i.e. plasma rifles and flame throwers. The missile pods would really bring the hurt when you consider the amount of firepower they have twin linked. I would also use a pair of Devilfish Transports and of course Kroot and two to three squads of 10 man firewarriors. The Kroot act as a shield as well as the gun drones from vehicles. I would basically pick a side that had the most highest target priority and focus all my fire on that side. The Orks would of course come storming on but they would get delayed by gun drones, Devilfish and kroot simply parking in front of them and forcing them to assault. I would not deep strike and just lay on the firepower. The two teams of pathfinders would really help out with my firewarriors and missile pods. Once the Ork player was a turn away I would start moving my stuff away, sometimes towards the outer board or towards my other firebase. Eventually the priority targets would be destroyed and I would keep gaining distance away from the side that was rushed. By the time I lost one firebase which sometimes did not happen, I had destroyed quite a bit of the Ork force and now I had range once again forcing the Ork player to close the distance and get shot at. I hope this helps and I know its a specific case but maybe you can use some of it.

Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#30 » Apr 21 2015 11:54

Being an Ork player myself and getting my arse handed to me by a veteran Farsight Enclaves player, I can suggest the following:

- Misslesides coupled with markerlights will mincemeat us. The only way I can imagine any ork mob weathering this is by having a Big Mek with a KFF leading the unit coupled with a Painboy for FNP.

- Plasma Carbines and other pinning weapons have a very good chance of pinning Orks what with our low leadership. This has the potential to inflict further wounds on an Ork unit due to Mob Rule. If you're real lucky, your opponent can end up killing as much as six Boys every time he fails a pinning check.

- A full, three man team Crisis Suits with duel Burst Cannons. Yes, that's a lot of dead Orks. Take a few units of these fellows, at least two.

- All the blast templates you can muster, Riptides and Hammerheads with sub-munitions should do the trick.

With some smart maneuvering and a sound Kauyon approach, you can quite possibly come away with a victory.

Tau'va.

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Al'tyr
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#31 » Apr 21 2015 10:15

Hi, as a tau player who regularly fights against irks I have the following recommendations;

1 - dual (not twin linked) burst cannons and flamers
2 - reserve and outflank, or reserve and deep strike. Crisis, kroot, pathfinders are all excellent at this.
3 - Pirahnas with flechette are funny once or twice, but he will soon learn not to charge them.
4 - Split deployment, make two castles. He will have to assault you, so make him split his forces. Only shoot half his army, and use your riptide nova reactors to redeploy
5 - Refused flank. Set up looking like you are castling in a corner. Pull him in and use your devilish and crisis teams to slip out of his fingers.
6 - try and surround him. He will only want to come towards you, as soon as you get stuff in front and behind him he needs to choose who is more dangerous
7 - use storm of fire on your ethereal more. 3 shots at 15 inches for each fire warrior is awesome.
8 - drones are like 'ardboyz with snazguns, with higher initiative than an ork. Attach a commander with drone controller and use the ethereal a storm of fire and you get 3 BS5 twin linked pulse carbine shots at 9". Throw in a multi spectrum sensor suite and you are ignoring cover too!!!! and this unit can deep strike.

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Jefffar
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#32 » Apr 21 2015 11:05

I've never fought Irks, but I am sure they are annoying. :)



As for the learning not to charge Piranha's with Flechette Dischargers - that's a victory of sorts as well as you can arrange squadrons to act as movement blocking walls, slowing their advance, making them bunch up for template weapons and otherwise frustrating your opponent.

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Critacal
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#33 » Apr 22 2015 05:53

I honestly feel stealth suits are far too expensive (they have multitracker which is useless) for their lack of effectiveness at staying alive and their firepower, you can get 16 kroot for 3 stealths 96 vs 90, 5 stealth suits cost more than 3 crisis suits with dual burst and 1 flamer.

I felt Kroot were useless as do some other players do or have but after thinking about it for some time they prove to be very useful and cost effective.

3 stealths vs 16 kroot:
both can infiltrate
you get a scoring unit with kroot troop choice can cap objectives in other games.
stealth have more survivability but can be countered by greater numbers .
more shots 12 vs 16/32 or 32/48 with an ethereal nearby where as stealths won't benefit other than ld and using other invocations which prove bad for your firewarriors.
Kroot have a decent chance of holding orks in cc stealths won't.

5 stealths vs 3 crisis suits with dual burst and 1 flamer
9 pts cheaper 150 vs 141
easier to force morale checks if a crisis goes down but crisis units are tougher 1 wound and toughness higher.
4 more burst cannon shots and flamers for overwatch

if you plan on using crisis suits always make the whole unit focused for what it should do it is better to have 6 fusion blaster deep strike near vehicles than 2 fusions 2 plasma and 2 burst cannons near one especially if we are talking about taking out a stompa. if you want to go the extra mile to go anti vehicle you can take twin fusion and add another fusion per a suit and it isn't terribly expensive 57pt per a suit isn't that bad but a bit overkill

Getting broadsides with HYMP and SMS and you have a great blob thinner that won't be hindered by cover.

I feel pathfinders with heavy weapons are far too expensive on a unit that is rather fragile and an attention magnet it can prove to be more effective to have an ethereal with 2 marker drones join a sniper drone team you give the ethereal stealth as well in this combo so he has some protection.

Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#34 » Apr 22 2015 02:28

Kroot would get massacred by Choppa Boyz on the charge and could (italicized, because it's a very real possibility) even provide the Orks with additional consolidation movement, something you don't want really.

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Critacal
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#35 » Apr 22 2015 04:56

Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel wrote:Kroot would get massacred by Choppa Boyz on the charge and could (italicized, because it's a very real possibility) even provide the Orks with additional consolidation movement, something you don't want really.


If they had los breakers or transport to get them up close without the kroot having an opportunity to shoot them or there was like 30 of them then yeah they will destroy them. Theoretically 10 Kroot can kill 6 Boyz without eavy armour from shooting and overwatch without support within 12" from running 24" away and got 6 on a run, if the numbers are even and the Kroot have range they aren't that greatly disadvantaged.

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Blueshock
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Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#36 » Apr 23 2015 01:52

Critacal wrote:
Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel wrote:Kroot would get massacred by Choppa Boyz on the charge and could (italicized, because it's a very real possibility) even provide the Orks with additional consolidation movement, something you don't want really.


If they had los breakers or transport to get them up close without the kroot having an opportunity to shoot them or there was like 30 of them then yeah they will destroy them. Theoretically 10 Kroot can kill 6 Boyz without eavy armour from shooting and overwatch without support within 12" from running 24" away and got 6 on a run, if the numbers are even and the Kroot have range they aren't that greatly disadvantaged.


You can also throw in some squishy melee type units like Aun'Shi or a buffmander to make them much more killy too. Hounds in mass wreck things, at 6 points a pop you can't go wrong (beasts with Init 5 and 3 atks on the charge against orks is good stuff).
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