Clever Ork hordes

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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coldwind
Shas
Posts: 17

Clever Ork hordes

Post#1 » Jan 03 2015 08:50

I have been playing tau for three years but i am still struggling to beat a friend who has large army of orks that he fully capable of using to obliterate all of my large units like a riptide and my regrettably few fire warriors and kroot using large hordes of boys and a single large unit of Nobs at my flanks. he also has an irritating habit of attacking my piranha wit a wartrukk to get rid of my ligthning strike ambushers early on.

This coupled with an attached Ghazgul miniature has it it almost impossible for me to defeat him in games, in fact I have only beat this combination of orks twice in three years of gaming. my current tactic is to have a fire base consisting of a railhead and 2 squads of pulse rifle equipped fire warriors and path finder squad nestled away in a build sniping sniping with markerlights to bolster the army as a whole, I have learned the hard way that deep striking my riptide behind his advancing army is a surefire way to get it destroyed even when it has shielded missile drones and a nova charged sheild.

the only unit i have had success with is the crisis suits who i use in two units of three and one mon'at to dole out heavy anti-infantyr damage but if i the dice roles don't work in my favour they are left dangerously exposed to return fire and assaul;t. i use an ethereal to bolster my units against assault with his sense of stone ability. but this only delays the inevitable.

My kroot usually die in service a shield to delay the nobs, however he is able to to overcome my army's mobility using an abilty called WAAAGH! this essentially gives him fleet of foot in all units and charge i have been unable to find out when it is legal to use this ability so he just pops it off halfway through a ame to obliterate my ranged advantage with hordes as well as bombing me with a three man unit of defkopters i will be playing witha friend who has a small three squad army of space marines who will be acting as an allied detachment.

Any suggestions for any tactics that might give me an edge against these clever orks would be appreciated.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Tem
Shas
Posts: 173

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#2 » Jan 03 2015 05:53

If you want help, some more information would be appreciated, such as:

What point level are you playing?

What models do you have availible?

How many Orks are we talking about, how are they equiped and so on (it'd really help us help you if we have a clear idea of his army list)?

Is your opponent using formations such as the Green Tide?

How much terrain do you have on the board?

How do you play? Do you castle up in a corner? Go out to meet him?

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coldwind
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#3 » Jan 04 2015 07:45

Apologies for not being clear enough

I have 1284 points the battle will be 1500 points counting my friends army who will be acting as an allied detachment of space marines, i know this is an unorthodox setup but this was set up by my ork mongering friend as a way for a new player at our club to gets some experience alongside a larger army to support and bolster him.

I have a firebase consisting of three squads of fire warriors all pulse rifle equipped one with EMP grenades and devilfish with disruption pod and sensor spines.this is supported by an eight man unit of pathfinders with rail rifles and a railhead with submunitions and sensor spines.

I have an ethereal with an honor blade, who i either put in the center of my firebase or in an advance party so they can benifit from his failire is not an option rule, I use his invocation of the elements rule to give my units a defensive edge and a way to stop assaults before the enemy gets too close for comfort.

I have a crisis commander with an Airbursting fragmentation projector , fusion blaster positional relay and shield generator as well as a bodyguard with flamer and plasma rifle as well as a fusion blaster on the second bodyguard this is usually supported by a second crisis team with twin linked flamers, twin linked fusion blasters and twin linked burst cannons, this advance party is supported by an riptide the standard load out (heavy burst cannon and a smart missile system) bolstered by a velocity tracker and a counterfire defense system. this part of the army is supported by 20 kroot in two units of ten, one in the devilfish and the other making up a rear guard. i use this formation as a spearhead to eliminate key units and vehicles.

finally I use a fusion piranha as a delay and deterrent to draw out units and spread his army thin. this role is in turn supported by three teams of stealth suits each witha fusion blaster.

The battlefield is a ruined city with lots of building fairly close together, not close enough to play by cities of death, and besides none of us posses the rules for cities of death, we usually put a lot of terrain down, however this puts me a at disadvantage in terms of line of sight.

The other battlefield we are likely to use is more expansive with large column like cliffs across the battlefield, the orks I play against tend to use these as cover rather than climbing up them.

My enemy is generally unpredicatable in his tactics but he uses a large unit of ork nobz supported by a warboss or if he is feeling particularly cruel, by ghazgul, he tends to try and overwhelme with large units of boyz with big shootas, this tactic flushes me out under sheer weight of firepower that I cannot match.

Overall i am not sure of what his army list will be but it always followws that base, he will very likely use stormboyz as he has been itching to test them out for a long time now.

He usually uses kommandos as ranged support and a rear guard. and if he can fit it in and and if we can't talk him down then he could bring out a Stompa though this rarely happens as it becomes an unfair match up.

Again apologies for not giving more information.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#4 » Jan 04 2015 10:04

Sooo, in a nutshell, he sets the table up to ensure he has as much cover as possible (I'm assuming this as he seems to have all the models and therefore probably has the board too). You always have a predictable amount of units, as you only have so much, and has enough points to completely change his army each game?

Sounds lovely. Now that being said, your loadout doesn't sound horrible. If you don't mind, can we get a little more detail? How many Firewarriors total in each squad, how many of your pathfinders have rail rifles?

Right off the bat, I would suggest splitting your railrifles from your marker light crew in your pathfinder squad. That way when he assaults them, he won't take out the entire unit. Also, it would allow all of your pathfinders the ability to fire as the railrifles have a shorter range than your marker lights, and you could set them up slightly forward of your marker team.

No matter how you,slice it, he's got the advantage in numbers and from the sounds of it, terrain. You have to try and take away that advantage, or use it against him. Terrain is good for cover, but it also hinders mobility. You have the ability to jumpshootjump (jsj), use it.

To limit your casualties, you might even consider splitting your crisis suits into single unit teams, but having them work closely together, again to limit how many can engage and kill in close combat, while still giving you their combined firepower.

Your Stealth teams, I'm assuming that you have 3 teams of 3? One fusion blaster per team? What you can consider is perhaps making one member a team leader and giving him a marker light, to give you a few more. Keep the Orks at 18" range as much as possible, again jsj. Don't forget that your stealth suits have multi trackers built in so your tea leader will be able to fire both his primary weapon and his marker light.

Do you have any drones? If so, how many?

One more thing, Kroot suck in close combat at the best of times, don't use them that way unless your using them as a speed bump, especially against orks. Give them their sniper rounds and plant them on the edges or infiltrate them into cover and let them snipe. They'll give you a better return and perform better in my opinion, and possibly even surprise him.

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coldwind
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#5 » Jan 04 2015 11:24

I usually go for teams of 7-12 in terms of fire warriors and if possible i tend too use them in conjunction with a devilfish in sea turtle though in this case i would sea turtle the kroot and keep the firebase in cover but able to get out quickly. In case the worst happens or the current set up becomes pointless against a flaking maneuver (he is very fond of flaking me with 20 nobz and a warboss). If the battle field is open and my piranha finds itself in such a position that it's generally anti-armour loadout becomes useless against weight of numbers, i might have to use that as cover as well, but this is obviously a last case scenario as that takes away a lot of mobility.

I do have drones but only enough to form a small squad, so i prefer to spread them out to reduce casualties and add a few extra guns to the mix. the stealth teams are three man teams wich a use as flaking and deterrent, i have about five marker drones but i am not sure where to put them, in the fire warriors, the crisis teams, or the pathfinder, stealthsuits maybe?

Rlso as a side note, he takes so long to setup his orks most nights that i am left to setup terrain, so in my fairly limited time i try to set it up even with some height advantages on both sides, but he somehow finds nooks and cranny's i cant reach, and with my terrible luck i often struggle to kill many of his boyz even with a full salvo from two 12 man fire warriors and hammerhead sunbmunitions. This leads to him being able to waltz up and down the board and kill everything in sight some times, so i keep the units in clusters to benefit form submunitions, using stealthsuits to split him up and have him chasing shadows. however if i am lucky and get enough kills from each salvo then his tactics become moot and he resorts to deffkopta bombing which is difficult to defend against espesially as it makes a mockery of my clusters and uses them against me.

The only thing in my arsenal he has difficulty killing is the riptide which is fully capable of surviving a salvo from a 30 orks and taking only 1 or 2 wounds, the load out it has makes very good for suppression and flushing his units out of cover, but it is an assault magnet and if i deep strike it then it gets obliterated before it can fire or evade.

my friends space marines is a small allied detachment of a devastator squad with a plasma cannon, a lascannon and heavy bolter alongside a tactical squad. I don't know how he will behave but he almost certainly won't be targeted as much due to the small size of his force so he will most likely suppress and draw him away from any objectives if we play by that scenario.

the kroot only engage in assault as a last resort to keep him away from the main meat of my army when all else fails. so that way the can inflict maximum damage for as long as possible.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#6 » Jan 04 2015 12:03

How many many total Firewarriors then? There are posts in here about optimal size of fire warriors, not sure off hand what they are though. Personally, I would put a squad of Firewarriors in the fish and runit around do fish of fury, which would work even better if you have carbine teams, instead of pulse rifle teams.

Also, are you using your kroot with sniper rounds or not? As for your marker drones, use them as a squadron and attach your commander to them. He'll need a drone controller, but the drones will benefit from the commanders Ballistic Skill (BS).

Do you have gun drones as well? If you do, you can put the in a separate squadron and use them as harassers, who have the same mobility as your suit teams.

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coldwind
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#7 » Jan 04 2015 01:06

i only have a pitiful 22 fire warriors most of whom armed with pulse rifles but i have 5 armed with carbines, i know this not the vest loadut for a force of infantry to have but that is all i am in possesion of.

I also have considerably fewer marker drones than i thought, only having two.

The total gun drones that i have that are free from vehicles is 6, giving an overall of 12 drones including those in vehicles which is not bad but also not great either. my army is constructed according to what i can get as there is limited availability for miniatures where i am especially tau, so my army is constructed from whatever kits i have been able to get, for example i have mainly been able to get stealth suits and as my army was built from the fifth edition battleforce and this has left me with a grossly unbalanced army. This has left me with a poor situation for drones.

Apologies for the continued updates as a final note yes i will be giving my kroot sniper rounds.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#8 » Jan 04 2015 04:06

Only 22 Firewarriors eh? From what I recall, a lot of the guys here believe the "optimal" Firewarriors size is 8-10 warriors to squad.... But, 7, 7, and 8 can work too, just not "optimal" as the case may be. Personally, I like 10-12 to my squads, but I don't have a numbers issue either.

Don't sell your stealth teams short either. Teams of 6 suits are AWESOME, well in my opinion at least. If you went with 6 suits, 1 having a fusion blaster and marker light (team leader), it gives you a lot of flexibility and firepower with a decent save when being fired at.

So, how exactly do you guys lay out your terrain? Is the terrain at your house, or his? Do you wait to get to the location prior to laying out the terrain, then lay the terrain out, then place your models, or do you place your models then place the terrain around them... You mentioned that your friend takes his time laying out the models then you lay out the terrain...

If he's coming to your home, he can easily take the models out AFTER you've laid out the terrain. If your going to his home, then there is no excuse. He should have his models ready ahead of time.

Your drone squadron can be a mix of any of the available drones, so you can mix your marker and standard drones. Not only that, but if the commander joins with them, and has a drone controller, again as I mentioned earlier, they use his BS. So, that means that all of the drones would be hitting on a 2+.

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coldwind
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#9 » Jan 04 2015 05:00

So, how exactly do you guys lay out your terrain? Is the terrain at your house, or his?


the problem here is we meet at a club to battle so neither of us can lay our miniatures out, and because we only have a fairly limited amount of time we have to get started quickly so because my army is smallest it often falls to me but we both make sure we think the terrain is fair in terms of cover and LoS before we start, but in such a manner that it is still fairly random in disposition. we both deploy at the same time but he also has a few other admin roles at the club before he can lay out most of his stuff.

the terrain is usually a buildings laid out on the sides of a street with a few 90 degree turns in on either side of a no mans land that takes up about a third of the board the no mans land has small amounts of cover like barricades but almost nothing that will seriously obstruct LoS so anything that goes out there is quite vulnerable, though the chances are the battlefield will be mixed up a bit with more obstruction and a less rigid setup so there is less of this vulnerability for anything in the no mans land.

The way I have been trying to use the no mans land to just fire at anything orkish within it, the closer it is to me the more fire it attracts, though this probably isn't the best strategy,

If the battlefield is a bit more random, like a hope for it to be then it will be more difficult, he will have no problems with using just flooding me from points where i have a more obstructed line of sight, and he has nasty habit of outflanking me by just running down the side of the battlefield with his Nobz and popping of his mysterious WAAGH rule which seems to have no premise and be generated from no particular unit like necron self repair but it can be called up whenever he wants it and it seems to last the rest of the game.

I have asked about this many times, but he is very elusive and haven't been able to find out anything about it. as far as i am aware this isn't a real rule or it is very outdated but the fact that he uses it can turn a near victory for me into a rout because i can't react in time, sand although i have seen a rule under the same name before it was only allowed in the charge and only gave +1 attack, but he claims it also gives him fleet.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1062

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#10 » Jan 04 2015 05:38

Just to enlight you about the WAAAGH rule of the last Ork Codex:
One use, at turn 2 or after, for one (ork player) turn
To use the Waaagh, the character must have the Waaagh rule and must be the Warlord (so only doable by a Warboss taken as warlord or another character that are warlord with the 1 result on the Warlord traits).
Affect all units with all their models having the 'Ere we go rule (= reroll one distance die on assault): they can charge after shooting (normal), sprinting (waaagh effect) and maybe coming from reserve (but this, I am not sure)
(It works on most foot units like Boyz, Nobz, ... but not on Gretchins unless the Runtherd is the only one remaining)

So it's not whenever he want and last for his current turn only ( oh and if he didn't declare it at the start of his turn, before moving or reserve, it is invalid).
As it is generated by a model, the model must be on the table. So no warboss coming from reserves and declaring a Waaagh...

No +1 attack from the waaagh (Furious charge maybe ? but IIRC it gives only +1 S)
No Fleet rule too (but 'Ere we go allow to reroll one assault distance die).

See this if you want some details about Orks tactics and rule description: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Orks%287E%29

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#11 » Jan 04 2015 05:42

LOL! Hey Kael'yn I just sent him a pm with this info too... Wasn't sure if anyone else was helping him or not.

That being said, I didn't put in all of the other nice info that you posted here either. :P nice summary. :D

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1062

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#12 » Jan 04 2015 06:02

Shas 'o Deepstrike wrote:LOL! Hey Kael'yn I just sent him a pm with this info too... Wasn't sure if anyone else was helping him or not.


My sparring Ork partner is currently hibernating... So my spies have waking problem when interrogating one of his grot to get the info ! ;)
Our space station is quit empty on week-end. Our Ork specialists may return in few days, I suppose.

slothosaurus
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#13 » Jan 04 2015 07:07

Not sure how you'd have any serious AP strikes without the rail side, but consider some missile-sides against orcs maybe? I don't have too much experience, but 24 twin-linked shots at 36" that could end up glancing vehicles as well seems pretty powerful. They're also very survivable. So that helps. Although, I would want someone else to back this advice up before posting. I'm not close to a veteran. In a 1500 point game, it seems reasonable to fit in a 195 pt unit of 3 for all 24 shots.

Also, I'm with the guy who said not to knock your stealth team! They can be very powerful!

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Jefffar
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1010

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#14 » Jan 04 2015 10:10

So if the Warlord is dead, the Orks can't WAAAGH!? Interesting and possibly tactically useful.

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#15 » Jan 04 2015 11:18

According to the codex... Yes. I didn't even think about it like that... Very interesting indeed!!! :biggrin:

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armchairgeneral
Shas
Posts: 15

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#16 » Jan 04 2015 11:47

I had the same problem when i fist started out the friend who was teaching me was an ork horde player and would wipe the floor with me time after time for months. But what i learnt from my continuous and unrelenting beat down sessions is that

1. blast markers are great ( i would aim to try and take out as many models from multiplue units as possible watching orks fall back or kill each other is always strangely rewarding)

2. try giving firewarriors carbines 2 shots at 18" with pinning might slow them down.

3. deploy as far back as possible in an organsised blob over watch will hurt more then

4. try farsight enclaves the prefered enermy in close combat will help

5. invest in a flyer or 2 and some more riptides I got mine second hand from one the numours facebook buy swap sell pages for under $50 each

TL;DR - create space blast maker FSE gives you prefered enermy

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Shymer
Fio
Posts: 130

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#17 » Jan 05 2015 04:51

If you want to keep some distance from an enemy army with lots of models focused on melee then you may want to look at a couple of things from Stronghold Assault. Firstly, tanglewire can be purchased which is dangerous terrain and doesn't offer much cover to enemy troops. You may want to put that on the flanks to make him think twice about running down the side of the board. Similarly tank traps can be deployed to limit the rate (or dictate the route) by which trukks and other vehicles can traverse the battlefield.

You can combine this with an Aegis Defence Line (and quadcannon to help nullify the flying threat) to give your units some configurable cover - or a Promethium pipeline, perhaps - to give you easy access to a large number of Torrent weapons (XV8 crisis suit team with lots of flamers might be good against Orks - keep them close to a pipeline and the results could be amazing). Flamers also good against open-topped enemy transports.

Don't forget to throw Photon grenades at an ork unit if they are in range. They tend to have poor initiative and can be vulnerable to blind.

They are also vulnerable to morale damage. Try and snipe high leadership characters (a job for your Kroot) and focus fire on units to force morale checks. Also then maximises your pinning chances using pulse carbines/gun drones.

An Ethereal can help stiffen resistance to assault, but I have found that sense of stone doesn't offer as much benefit as storm of fire (overwatch). When combined with good troop positioning and supporting fire rules (particularly with flamer-equipped suits), then you can cause a great deal of damage to an enemy charging you. I like to combine the Ethereal with a Cadre Fireblade to create a solid infantry firebase for my fire warriors.

If the enemy has large units, then you could give him a headache by using single crisis suit units with dual flamers and deep-striking them all over the backfield. If you lose one or two of them to mass assaults, then the enemy has wasted a turn and possibly charged away from your other troops. If he ignores them, then two templates from each suit which ignores cover can cause some casualties. You may need to use Farsight enclaves to get enough FoC slots to accommodate this tactic.

Also - in all this - what are the victory conditions in your games? I sometimes get side-tracked killing/being killed by a foe and forget that victory points win games - and that doesn't always mean having to kill the enemy.
Shas’O Sa’cea Kar’Li Cal’Cha “Commander Fairlight”

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coldwind
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Clever Ork hordes

Post#18 » Jan 05 2015 10:52

thank you for all the advice it is much appreciated! :biggrin:

Also - in all this - what are the victory conditions in your games? I sometimes get side-tracked killing/being killed by a foe and forget that victory points win games - and that doesn't always mean having to kill the enemy.


generally we play annihilation so killing is the only major goal, though we often add secondary circumstances like line breaker and slay the warlord to mix it up a little,, i have been trying to get a relic scenario going so that is also likely to happen but it will almost certainly be annihilation.
by the Tau'va these gue'la have a lot of tanks.

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