Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
Bolter&Rail
Shas
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Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#11 » Apr 27 2015 11:18

The downgrade to Wave Serpent fire power brings cheers across my firecadre. The WraithKnight stats haven’t been able to let me sleep yet though… I was falling in love with sniper drone teams from the above earlier posts and felt that was the only real way to deal with WK but now I have no idea.

I often play against a WK that runs around with a 5++ and I don’t see sniper drones or fusion blasters bring it down. I never liked the fusion blaster or plasma idea because of how close we need to get and the WK can just assault a crisis squad a turn and take them off the map and also negate our ability to shoot at him with other units… The sniper drones were sounding like the best option, but with the WK upgrade we have nearly lost that option. A full sniper drone squad with ethereal would need 4 turns of total fire concentrated on a WK with 5++ to bring him down. 2 full sniper teams with an ethereal could do it in 2 but that fills up valuable heavy slots and costs us 350 pts to strike underweight.

As mentioned I don’t see the fusion or plasma tactic working either. Against a 5++ WK we need 28 fusion hits to bring him down which if you want to take him down in one swoop (to prevent perpetual assault and destruction) that would be 56 fusion guns on 28 crisis suits (a lot more pts that a WK)
Seekers are the same as fusion when it comes down to wounding ability and yes they grant us being able to keep our distance, but again need a solid 33 seeker missiles and the equivalent marker light support.

I guess we have to double up on the sniper drones and hope the enemy only brings one WK? I would like to say just take a couple squads of kroot with an ethereal and assault the thing to tie him up for the game, but with the heavy stomp the WK has I’m afraid that would last 1 turn…

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#12 » Apr 27 2015 12:06

Snipers are not the way to go here, wounding on 6's is not reliable, even with re-rolls.
Broadsides with HRR + Seekermissiles would have a much more reliable, and all-round 4+ to wound, as well as having a longer range.
At BS5, a single round of shooting would deal ~3 and that's without missiledrones.

A WK with the 5++ means it'll not have any WraithCannons, wich means no StrD.
Since it traded away it's firepower for a 5++ and a suncannon, you can start ignoring it at that point. Because it now needs to get much closer to be a threat, Broadsides will get the chance to fire full salvo's. it's 5++ will do no good to volume of fire.
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

Bolter&Rail
Shas
Posts: 52

Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#13 » Apr 27 2015 12:28

Good point about the 5++ taking away from D-weapon loadout so may be less likely to see that invul save on the WK these days.

Not sure I follow your math on the HHR broadsides. 3 broadsides are going to deal 2.25 hits which equates to only a half of an unsaved wound after invul save and FnP. 3 Guided seeker missiles come out around the same with half a wound. Even if you fully load-out with missile drones that’s only 2 wounds a turn this entire unit is dealing to the WK. With his 24 inch assault range you could easily be looking at being charged turn 2 if you are trying to utilize the range of the missile drones.

I think the math favors HYMP against the WK ignoring the range differential which to your point, may be best to run the HRR broadsides without missile drones and put them in the back field to at least tick a wound a turn off the WK, but not going to bring him down in a timely manner really.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#14 » Apr 27 2015 02:05

ShasODerpy wrote:Snipers are not the way to go here, wounding on 6's is not reliable, even with re-rolls.
Broadsides with HRR + Seekermissiles would have a much more reliable, and all-round 4+ to wound, as well as having a longer range.
At BS5, a single round of shooting would deal ~3 and that's without missiledrones.

A WK with the 5++ means it'll not have any WraithCannons, wich means no StrD.
Since it traded away it's firepower for a 5++ and a suncannon, you can start ignoring it at that point. Because it now needs to get much closer to be a threat, Broadsides will get the chance to fire full salvo's. it's 5++ will do no good to volume of fire.


Yes and no on the snipers. If you are taking kroot anyway (to bubble-wrap your expensive units) then go ahead and shoot massed sniper rounds at the WK, at least when you roll a 6 it bypasses the armour save. A full unit of broadsides + seeker missiles may do more damage but then they do cost significantly more. If you need to kill a WK fast then I think the skyray is the go-to option. Massed kroot snipers are different, they buy you time by making your expensive units impossible to assault while they still chip away a couple of wounds here and there and are actually a reasonably points-efficient way to hurt it.

Enough kroot can actually keep your skyrays/riptides safely outside D weapon range until the eldar player goes through the boring job of whittling them down. A brief experiment seemed to get this working with 50-60 kroot (allowing for the rather large base on the WK) which made me happy as the core of my army is 70 kroot. This only works with kroot because they can infiltrate.

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#15 » Apr 27 2015 05:05

Bolter&Rail wrote:Not sure I follow your math on the HHR broadsides. 3 broadsides are going to deal 2.25 hits which equates to only a half of an unsaved wound after invul save and FnP. 3 Guided seeker missiles come out around the same with half a wound. Even if you fully load-out with missile drones that’s only 2 wounds a turn this entire unit is dealing to the WK. With his 24 inch assault range you could easily be looking at being charged turn 2 if you are trying to utilize the range of the missile drones.

Was simple headmath, so might've screwed up somewhere... let me rethink on this....
I'm purely thinking on a WK with WraithCannons here, so no 5++'s


For their first round of shooting, 6 Str8 shots, 3 of them twin linked. Buffed to BS5 by 2 markerlights (more efficient then spending 3 tokens on 3x seekermissiles).
3x HRR: 2.91 hits, 1.45 Wounds, 0.97 Wounds after FnP
3x Seekers: 2.5 hits, 1.25 Wounds, 0.83 Wounds after FnP
=1.8 Wounds

HYMP would get 12 TL-Str7 Shots.
12x HYMP: 11,66 hits, 3,88 Wounds, 1,29 Wounds after Armor, 0.86 Wounds after FNP
3x Seekers: 2.5 hits, 1.25 Wounds, 0.83 Wounds after FnP
=1.69 Wounds

Guess the difference is marginal, but there are some key differences to consider.

If the WK has a cover, or invuln save, the HRR and SeekerMissile suffer, because they're allowed an additional save.
The HYMP does not care about cover, since it already has to get past a 3+ armor
HYMP wins out here, since it does nearly double the wounds when there's a ++ save involved compared to a HRR, and only 0.11 wounds less when it isn't

The advantage for the HRR would be the 60' range, so the WK cant really hide himself outside the HYMP 36' max range.


Another option would be Monster Hunter from a PEN-Chip, aswell as a Warlord Trait avaible in the Escalation book (makes all shooting attacks against a LoW unit AP1)
I should do some proper math on this before next week's battle...


nic wrote:Yes and no on the snipers. If you are taking kroot anyway (to bubble-wrap your expensive units) then go ahead and shoot massed sniper rounds at the WK, at least when you roll a 6 it bypasses the armour save. A full unit of broadsides + seeker missiles may do more damage but then they do cost significantly more. If you need to kill a WK fast then I think the skyray is the go-to option. Massed kroot snipers are different, they buy you time by making your expensive units impossible to assault while they still chip away a couple of wounds here and there and are actually a reasonably points-efficient way to hurt it.

Enough kroot can actually keep your skyrays/riptides safely outside D weapon range until the eldar player goes through the boring job of whittling them down. A brief experiment seemed to get this working with 50-60 kroot (allowing for the rather large base on the WK) which made me happy as the core of my army is 70 kroot. This only works with kroot because they can infiltrate.


The problem with Kroot being, they'll die if anything with a high volume of shots looks at them, and with Eldar jetbikes / battle-focussed avengers they'll give up easy first blood.
Not even mentioning their 24' sniper range, the WK will either be outside of their range, or in close combat.

-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#16 » Apr 27 2015 06:02

ShasODerpy wrote:
The problem with Kroot being, they'll die if anything with a high volume of shots looks at them, and with Eldar jetbikes / battle-focussed avengers they'll give up easy first blood.
Not even mentioning their 24' sniper range, the WK will either be outside of their range, or in close combat.

-Derp


If the eldar player with that much shooting power is going first they will probably get first blood anyway, its a non-issue for me and I would rather that be cheap kroot than expensive riptides. In all honesty I think this match-up gets a lot harder if the eldar player gets to go first anyway. I might try more ninja-tau tactics there but I just think their alpha-strike is too good if I let them get into range.

If the eldar player has decent amounts of CC units then I will change tactics, the more CC they have the more chance I have of winning a straight-up shooting match. Also if it is just the one WK and massed dakka (e.g. scatter-laser jetbike spam) I will switch tactics because the threat is different (and my void shield is much more viable). This tactic is really do negate eldar builds which have gone heavy on the D weapons - which are awesome but do lack range. It is all about forcing those D weapons to spend the first critical turns killing kroot instead of expensive models where the D weapon profile pays dividends - against kroot a D weapon is no nastier than a pulse shot.

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Morollan
Shas
Posts: 94

Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#17 » May 18 2015 07:33

AnonAmbientLight wrote:They have the best psykers in the game. There's little to no chance of an Eldar player ever having to take perils if they have enough warp charges. They get an ability that lets them expend WC to ignore perils.


I don't have a problem with Eldar being the best psykers but it's worth noting that they absolutely cannot ignore Perils. They can negate the wound that is suffered, but that is all, and only if they have a spare warp charge. Any other effects from the Perils table still happens.So results 1-3 on the perils chart are still damaging to the Farseer.

Also note that it is only Farseers that can do this, not Spiritseers or Warlocks.

Bolter&Rail
Shas
Posts: 52

Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#18 » May 26 2015 04:22

Played a handful of small scenarios against the new WK the last few days and he is definitely no friend of the Tau.

At first I tried ignoring him just to see how bad it would be….it was bad. WK had the 2 D-cannons and once he gets well within his 24 inch assault range you can start saying goodbye to everything you own. Granted he rolled very well, but the below is well within the realm of possibilities. We started the WK 18 inches away from my Tau force to see how it would handle. (testing what would happened if you chose to ignore the WK and focus your force on destroying the rest of the eldar army).

Turn 1 of scenario: At the 18 inch mark the WK shot a cannon at an ion-riptide I had and rolled a 6, taking him off the board (no feel no pain or invuln allowed). The 2nd cannon he fired at my commander in a drone squad and took out a drone. The WK then assaulted the commander and drones, killed a couple drones with his hammer of wrath and normal attacks, then stomped 4 drones and the commander, again rolling a 6 on the commander who was removed from play (insta-killed). The rest of the squad had a morale check at leadership 3, failed and got sweeping advanced.
Damage: 535pts; 3 units

Turn 2 of scenario: WK shot at my hammerhead, got a hit and put on 3 penetrating hits, one of which caused it to explode. 2nd cannon shot went to firewarriors and missed. WK then assaulted the firewarriors who couldn’t hurt him in assault, but did take a wound off the WK in overwatch. The warriors locked him up for a turn before eventually failing leadership on my subsequent turn, then allowing the WK to roam free and assault more units on his new turn 3.
Damage: 233 pts; 2 units

Conclusion: If the WK gets <24 inches from a Tau army, you better hope you have taken out the rest of the Eldar units since the WK will likely destroy north of a unit per turn and your overwatch isn’t going to do much. I got unlucky and suffered 2.5 units per turn and nearly 400pts a turn, but the WK rolled well above average. He is an army killer that close.

On a more positive note the sniper drones are still a great way to deal with him from a distance. Even though we hit on 6s, remember those 6s are AP2. 9 sniper drones with an ethereal and a commander with a PEN chip can expect to bring him down before he is in range to assault. At >24 inches away they deal around 1.5 unsaved wounds. At <24 inches away with the ethereal granting an additional shot we are talking about 4.6 unsaved wounds. That alone should bring him down, but key will be to keep the drones, ethereal and commander alive till the WK breaks that 24 inch line. Could likely be 2nd half of turn 1 or first half of turn 2 though. Will run you over 400pts likely but then jump that commander elsewhere to more needed units afterwards to hopefully earn those points back.

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ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
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Re: Wraithknights & Wave Serpents oh my...

Post#19 » May 26 2015 06:53

Relying on 6's is not reliable at all, even with re-rolls. I've seen plenty of matches where a squad of TankHunter broadsides, +MissileDrones is shooting an AV-13 vehcile.
Then out of the 22 or so hits rolling only a single 6, including the re-rolls from tank-hunter. These things happen ofcourse, as they are forever part of a d6-based game.

My point here being, we don't shoot spammed Str7 at Imp.Knights, hoping to kill them. sure, they can damage it, but picking between 2 glances, or removing models somewhere, I'd pick the latter everytime.
The same for WraithKnights, When relying on 6's, and you have the option of more reliable wounds elsewhere, I'd go for reliable wounds every time.


Toughness 8 is a jerk, mostly because we Tau don't have any weaponry on the S9/ap3 class. We're literally forced on spamming wounds from MissilePods, RailRifles and Seekermissles

Missilepods are easily avaible, but will need staggering amounts of hits, this requires markerlights. so becomes expensive pointswise.

RailRifles are very limited in terms of availability... quite literally only on Broadsides, and still only wounding on that 4+

Seekermissiles are easily avaible, and in general, extremely usefull versus Eldar (particulary Jetbikes). But considering these also only wound a W.Knight on a 4+, you'll need atleast 12 hits to deal the 6 wounds required, and thats not even counting FNP.
We pay points for every missile, some basic math shows we'll need over 100 points in seekermissiles to kill that Wraitknight, I'd hardly call that efficient.

There's always Skyrays however... These guys are cheap enough for what they offer. AV-13 with Markerlights and Seekermissiles. the Skyfire and secondary weapon are just extra bonusses at this point. Remember that Scatterlasers are S6, so cannot glance the AV13!
I've recently been inspired by 2 Skyray-heavy lists, and am currently planning on taking 3+ skyrays by default against any Eldar opponent.


-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

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