Facing Khorne Daemonkin - Thoughts please

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Seanoss
Shas
Posts: 7

Facing Khorne Daemonkin - Thoughts please

Post#1 » Jul 09 2015 07:22

Greetings fellow commanders!

I would like to pick your brains regarding some trouble I am having with a daemonkin army I usually face.
Then guys list changes from time to time but is usually something like (1950 points):

2x D-slapper Bloodthirsters
2x Mauler fiends with lasher tendrils
2x gore pack (pretty sure this consists of 6 flesh hounds and 3 CSM bikes, usually with melta)
The deep strike formation of 3x hellbrutes that all arrive at once but as separate units
A helldrake
And the rest of his points are usually 2 squads of 8 blood letters

As you can see this is a very fast and hard hitting army. I play FSE suit heavy list with2 mark O commanders, 12 other suits, 2 iontides, a group of 3 railsides with skyfire and 3 fusion piranhas in a single unit. The two main issues I have are:

1)I am never able to take out enough of the threat before they reach my first riptide (as I use them as blocking units), by that time it is the beginning of the end as the rolling assaults begin. Could we please discuss the correct target priority? Usually I try to take out the thirsters first and then the maulerfiends and hope for the best…

2)On maelstrom missions I am always out maneuvered and get smashed on objective holding. I find my biggest issue is with the blood tithe he is able to spawn more obsec bloodletters as the game goes on. He is also able to always have me choosing between being in range of a unit or being on an objective. Can we please discuss the merits of deep striking onto objectives rather that for the destroying of units?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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De'terra
Fio'Vre
Fio'Vre
Posts: 554

Re: Facing Khorne Deamonkin - Thoughts please

Post#2 » Jul 10 2015 04:11

Hi Seanoss!

That looks like a nasty list but it doesn't seem to be impossible.
Could you put your full list here?
It will help to know what weapons you are running.

I will check some of the units in the meantime.
I'm not that familiar with daemonkin.

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boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: Facing Khorne Deamonkin - Thoughts please

Post#3 » Jul 10 2015 04:14

Well. On a glance here, you should know the summons are not OS. Nothing grants them that rule as they are not part of a detachment with that rule (being summons they are technically not part of ANY detachment)


Also unfusion your piranhas and shift AT roles to suits. Piranhas are not efficient fusion carriers and are brutally effective as cheap bullet spray distraction/roadblock unit.

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Dubey
Shas
Posts: 74

Re: Facing Khorne Deamonkin - Thoughts please

Post#4 » Jul 10 2015 09:44

I second boomwolf. Fusion piranhas are only good against things like mech guard, where every melta you get into your list counts.

I would also separate the piranhas since you have the slots and are playing maelstrom. They can be used to block charges or bottleneck them nicely and can scoot off to grab objectives cheaply especially after dropping their drones.

What are your suits kitted out with?

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Trevak Dal
Shas
Posts: 87

Re: Facing Khorne Deamonkin - Thoughts please

Post#5 » Jul 10 2015 04:26

I love Daemonkin.

Gorepack is 2x Bike units (3 minimum) with a Khorne dog unit (minimum 5), but you can have more-but to get the benefits of them, you have to have the two minimums.

He's not running Blood Host (With the Possessed Tax) so don't let him con you into thinking he gets a free blood point per turn.

His helbrutes in the Deep strike formation don't count as being Khorne Daemonkin, so won't benefit from extra attacks, rage/the surprisingly good/decent Chaos rules of Khorne Daemonkin. Their deaths don't count either, and neither do any units they kill. You need at least one model in a unit that does the killing with Blood for the Blood God (Khorne Daemonkin faction rule). So a Vanilla CSM Juggerlord with Axe of Blind Fury in a Unit of Khorne Daemonkin Khornedogs would count any kills he makes as being towards the bloodtithe because of the KDK Khorne Dogs.

The Unit Summon one does count as Khorne Daemonkin-so if they die/kill a unit, they count towards the blood tithe. As said however, they are not Objective secured. The initial 2 units of Blood Letters ARE however, if taken in a normal Combined arms detachment. It's pretty high up though (5 IIRC) above the Good Ones. Don't let him con you about being able to do 2 choices off the Blood Tithe table without paying that Possessed Tax either because he can't-he get's one choice and POOF all his bloodtithe points are gone.

He doesn't have any units (from what you've said) where he can put the SURPRISE BLOODTHIRSTER axe, nor does he have any units that are eligible to become daemon princes (except his Biker Champions...) so you don't have THAT annoyance to worry about.

Off the top of my head, you got several priority units to stop. His Blood Thirsters have a lot of attacks-but much like a Foot Eldar Army with lots of Wraithlords and a Wraithknight, if you focus on the OMG units, the rest of the army kills you (and vice versa). He's using only the good units with none of the trash-this looks to be a Tournament/Try Hard armylist, and you should be bringing similar.

The Khorne dogs got to go-but you probably won't be able to kill them outright (2 wounds each, and invulnerable saves) so your best choice might be a sacrificial drone swarm(s) to give them a hug and hold on tight. Khorne Dogs don't have any sort of rending, or ap at all-they do their damage with weight of dice, and we got access to lots of expendable drones from our various vehicles.

Maulerfiends also need to go-he probably drives them at your Riptides right? Personally, I'd go for Double Gjallahorning (novacharge ion) the Khorne Dogs first-as if they fail any saves they are instantly dead (same with bikes). Have your Crisis (You did take double missile pod suits right?) dump into the maulerfiends until you disable them. You don't have to kill them-and the Maulerfiends being Khorne Daemonkin faction you should not. Just disable them-and ignore them for the rest of the game.

That's knee-capping his fast movers-and only leaves his D Attack guys (at initiative 1-the D Axe has a new universal special rule that makes them unwieldy even though they are monstrous creatures because Phil Kelly had to input something into their rules and was likely sour about not having tables and charts and the player being able to pick the boons they wanted) and his Troops (Blood Letters if not taken in a Blood Host formation, or any other, are normal Objective secured Troops who can deep strike and are cheaper than any other KDK Troops option-so long as he's taking a Combined arms detachment which it seems like he has by your post).

Drown the fancy new daemon things in shots (focus on one-send in more drones if you have to, to hold up the other for a turn-what's more funny than a Close Combat harbinger of the chaos god of War/hate/rage/spite/fury/revenge? The fact that he's wasting those D attacks on gundrones and could potentially miss.) and have him make as many 3+ saves as you can force him to-have your Riptides shoot the ion cannons in their normal mode, along with their secondaries-weight of fire will win the day against them-they aren't Wraithlords, they don't have a bunch of gargantuan creature cheese to keep the 300 point D flinging model in play.

You play an elite style army, so you probably don't have the bodies to effectively deny lots of Deep Strike to Helbrutes, but you can still spread out-try to force him into situations where he's going to have to potentially roll on that Mishap table.
Trophies for the Hunter's den.

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Seanoss
Shas
Posts: 7

Re: Facing Khorne Deamonkin - Thoughts please

Post#6 » Jul 10 2015 05:29

Hey thanks for all the great feedback! That really helps.

Was not aware of those tithe rules. It appears I may have to challenge him on a couple of them. That one with the hellbrutes is especially interesting. Thanks again! And yes he does drive those maulerfiends right at my riptides, damn they are fast! Leaving the D-slapper bloodthirsers for last is not something I have considered...

The list I usually bring is this:

HQ – Commander 1: 128 pts
2x Missile pod, drone controller, target lock, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter

HQ – Commander 2: 128 pts
2x Missile Pod, drone controller, target lock, multi-tracker, blacksun filter

Troops – Crisis suits (3): 216 pts

2x burst cannon, 6x gun drones, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter, counterfire defense system

Troops – Crisis suits (3): 174 pts
2x Fusion blaster, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter, target lock

Troops – Crisis suits (3): 219 pts
2x Plasma rifle, 5x gun drones, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter

Troops – Crisis suits (3): 129 pts
2x Flamer, burst cannon, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter

Elites – Riptide 1: 220 pts

Ion accelerator, twin-linked plasma rifle, stimulant injector

Elites – Riptide 2: 220 pts

Ion accelerator, twin-linked fusion blaster, stimulant injector

Fast attack – Maker drones (4) 48 pts
Fast attack – Marker drones (4) 48 pts


Fast attack – Piranhas (3) 150 pts

Heavy support – Broadsides (3) 270 pts
Twin heavy rail rifle, twin plasma, Vel. Tracker

To give some background I am thinking of using this list for a local tournament at the end of the year. They have this ridiculous credit system on top of points cost; basically sums up to if the unit is powerful it costs more credits in an effort to stop powergamers getting hyper combos. This is why i have taken fusion pirahnas instead of more suits and also why I have heavy rail rifle with plasma on the broadsides. It does sound like it may be worth putting another gun drone squad in there though...

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: Facing Khorne Deamonkin - Thoughts please

Post#7 » Jul 11 2015 09:11

Thanks for,the army list, but I would suggest you remove the point costs...

We all have the army book and can look the point costs up ourselves if we're interested. Having them in is usually frowned upon on this site, due to possibly angering the mighty GW gods... ;)

That being said...

One of,the suggestions was to field a drone squadron which you could do if you moved your drones from you crisis teams to drone teams. Move you marker drones from the marker drone teams which you attach to the commanders and take them down to 2, with the commander directly. If you have the ability, I would like to suggest trying out the Broadsides with the HVM system and the SMS. the missile systems offer two benefits, one is target saturation and the second is the ability to fire indirect.

Although you'll lose two marker lights, you didn't have a lot to begin with and you'll gain the drone teams for harassment units. Being able to maneuver them separately from your crisis teams will also allow you have them run blocker or even mobile cover for,the crisis teams they were working with previously.

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boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: Facing Khorne Deamonkin - Thoughts please

Post#8 » Jul 11 2015 10:27

Point cist for entire units is fine, only brakedown of individual upgrade costs is forbidden.

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: Facing Khorne Daemonkin - Thoughts please

Post#9 » Jul 11 2015 03:19

Oops, my apologies. I tend to err on,the side of caution a lot

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Seanoss
Shas
Posts: 7

Re: Facing Khorne Daemonkin - Thoughts please

Post#10 » Jul 12 2015 07:39

Ok, thanks for the help!

I will be playing this guy again this Saturday. I think I will opt for a unit of drones and only have 2 marker drones per commander as per your suggestions. Some time this week I will post the amended list and let you know how I went.

Really appropriate the help.

Peace!

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 207

Re: Facing Khorne Daemonkin - Thoughts please

Post#11 » Jan 18 2016 10:44

Take the drones out of your suit units and put them into a Drone Net. As separate squads they can stand between your battle suits and his assault troops, have all the mobility of your suits, and gain the benefit of having +1 BS for all your drones as well as intercepter and jink etc. You might have to lose a drone or 2 to pay for the +2pt/model tax of taking them as squads instead of upgrades, but the tactical advantage of getting them between your suits is well worth it. When he assaults your drones you can overwatch with supporting fire from suits, and when the drones die to the assault, you get a full extra round of shooting and later overwatch on the unit before he can make his close combat attacks. That should help you significantly. Playing all suits you should be charging up the field to meet him with everything behind a line of drones, and then start the falling back shooting game. Just be very careful to know exactly what his maximum charge distance is per turn, and try and keep that between you as much as possible.
Remember, supporting fire is your friend, so try and keep your suits together. Also, you have the models for a Dawnblade contingent, so consider fielding one. You can break some of your crisis teams into Monats to allow you to field a contingent + CAD, and Monats gives you the benefit of being able to limit casualties from assaults to only a single suit.

I'd field your list like this:
Dawn Blade Contingent:
Retaliation Cadre:
Commander 1: 128 pts
2x Missile pod, drone controller, target lock, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter
Troops – Crisis suits (3): 144 pts
2x burst cannon, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter, counterfire defense system
Troops – Crisis suits (3): 144 pts
2x burst cannon, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter, counterfire defense system
Troops – Crisis suits (3): 174 pts
2x Plasma rifle, bonding knife, CFDS, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter
Elites – Riptide 1: 226 pts
Ion accelerator, twin-linked plasma rifle, stimulant injector Bonding Knife (you forgot this)
Broadsides (1) 76 pts
Twin heavy rail rifle, twin plasma, Vel. Tracker Bonded

Drone Net VX1-0:
2 x 4 Marker Drones 112
4 x 5 Gun Drones 280

Farsight Enclave CAD
HQ – Commander 1: 128 pts
2x Missile pod, drone controller, target lock, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter
Troops – Crisis suits (1): 58 pts
2x Fusion blaster, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter, Velocity Tracker
Troops – Crisis suits (1): 58 pts
2x Fusion blaster, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter, Velocity Tracker
Troops – Crisis suits (1): 58 pts
2x Fusion blaster, bonding knife, Multi-tracker, blacksun filter, Velocity Tracker
Fast attack – Piranhas (3) Burst Cannon 2 x Seeker Missiles 168 pts
Heavy Support - Broadsides (1) 76 pts
Twin heavy rail rifle, twin plasma, Vel. Tracker Bonded
Heavy Support - Broadsides (1) 76 pts
Twin heavy rail rifle, twin plasma, Vel. Tracker Bonded

Comes to 1906 points with 44 points left over for upgrades here and there, Maybe drop Target Locks from commanders and give them a shield generator, or throw in a 4th piranha and make them the Firestream wing to recharge their seekers/drones every other turn (they'd become part of the contingent and get killing blow).

This is essentially the same models you're already using, but used much more effectively.

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