Chaos Spawn

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shasocastris
Shas'Vre
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Chaos Spawn

Post#1 » Jan 26 2016 03:37

So, I've been having an issue with chaos spawn for the better part of a year now.

For those who are unaware, Chaos Renegades (IA 13) can get 3 spawn for 55 points. They are beasts, have T 5 and 3 W and no armour. They are also Fearless.

Dealing with one team isn't the issue. It's dealing with three units of them, Plague Drones (Nurgle jetbike cavalry that have similar stats but with shrouded and a 5+ invuln) and getting shot at by Renegades firing Rapier lascannons and wyverns. Plus summouned deamons.

It's largely come down to who gets first turn, and I find this boring. If he goes first, he charges turn 2 and that's largely game (especially in Dawn of War deployment).

What are your thoughts, ATT, on dealing with fast, T 5 models that are *very* cheap (and thus lots of small units running around).

Cheers!

Commander Burstroc
Shas
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Re: Chaos Spawn

Post#2 » Jan 26 2016 04:46

Lots of burst cannons should do the trick or even the storm surge str10 blast for the insta-death. If he's charging, then use counterfire defense for BS2 overwatch. also a blanket of infiltrating Kroot will force him to deal with them first. He should kill the kroot when he charges them but you'll be free to shoot when they come out of combat.

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shasocastris
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Re: Chaos Spawn

Post#3 » Jan 26 2016 06:08

I've done the points on burst cannons and I'm not really impressed. I think the best option in that case is the piranha. Consider:

Stealth Suit (30 pts): 4 shots * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1 wound

Stealth Suit in OSC: 4 shots * 2/3 * 1/2 = 4/3 wounds

Crisis Suit (42 pts): 8 shots * 1/2 * 1/2 = 2 wounds

Piranha + drones (40 pts): 4 shots * (1/2 + 5/9) * 1/2 = 2.11 wounds

And none of these even kill a single spawn! It takes nine stealth suits (or seven in an OSC) to kill a single unit. That's 270 points (or 210). Crisis burst cannons are more points efficient but I feel like I'd rather use them for something else. Piranhas have promise but I find them very fragile to a counter charge from another unit of spawn.

I've also postulated a crisis unit with two CIBs each and a shas'vre with the MSSS and CCN. This gives each Shas'ui 6 Str 7 AP 4 shots that are TL and ignore cover.

Crisis Suit with two CIB (52): 6*3/4*5/6 = 3 + 1/4

So three crisis suits armed like this will kill a spawn unit a turn. It just seems like a lot of points to spend on this one issue. I might try it out though.

Cheers!

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boomwolf
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Re: Chaos Spawn

Post#4 » Jan 26 2016 06:29

How is he getting turn 2 charges off to begin with? even being beasts, if you deploy slightly backwards and shuffle away a bit, turn 2 charges should be an uncertain event.

HYMP broadsides shred spawn rather easy, you just need to defend them from rapiers.

Fire warriors cause Spawn to fall rather fast as well, but generally dislike wyverns shooting at them.

A riptide wing of dakkatides (HBC/SMS/stim/whatever) will probably be the bane of heretic armies, they do good job cleaning them up, and nothing heretics has is really good against them. even the rapiers wont do too much, as it just takes too many HS slots to field them in noteworthy numbers. (a maxed CAD can only get 9 guns, with militia training thats 6.75 hits per turn, causing 5.625 wounds with 3.75 getting passed invul and 2.5 past FnP, at 210 points if he bought no extra crew-and doing that means the guns are easy kills.237 with maxed crewed, and maxed crewed means that after the third wound for a squad, you are crewing at guns.)

Ghosts also make short work of anything renegade, the OSC will do wonders as its not only the (not amazing) stealths, but the ghost as well that puts out some very impressive firepower. (the ion raker alone deals 3.3 wounds to the spawn), and will be good still against everything else in his army too.

Network drones laugh at your burst cannons with their increased accuracy (14 point drone scores 0.75 wounds on the spawn, so 4 drones for 56 usually kill a spawn in a single volly)


The question is not only what he fields-but what you field as well.

Also, is he fielding a legal list?
The IA13 army list has a hard limit on spawn count based on his arch-demagoge.
A mutant overlord unlocks one team, a Tzeentch covenant unlocks 3 teams, so 4 teams is the absolute maximum, assuming he has a Tzeentch mutant overlord. (only works on his warlord! if the arch-demagoge isn't the warlord he unlocks noting!)
there is also a hard limit on Blight Drones, that require your warlord to be with a covenant of Nurgle, and then yo can still take a single squad.
Only way to have both covenants is to be an Arch-heretic Revolutionary (and even that's questionable and requires FAQ if it makes it free, or grants a second free one unrelated to the first)

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shasocastris
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Re: Chaos Spawn

Post#5 » Jan 26 2016 08:50

To respond...

Dawn of War Deployment is really the biggest issue. Spawn have a 12" movement d6" run, 12" movement than 2d6" charge, all with fleet. They are *fast*. It's not hard for him to go 28" during two turns before charging. And because they are beasts, they don't suffer difficult terrain. And as a result of Dawn of War, I find I have less room to maneuver.

I should clarify what his list is, as the Broadsides tend to have other targets. These include Blight Drones, Heralds summoning things, his Great Unclean One summoning things, possibly a Maulerfiend. Basically, they have a lot to do. I've thought about bringing two squads, to be sure.

I've thought about the Riptide Wing. I don't have enough Riptides put together to try it though. The moment I do, I'll report back. I'm particularly interested to see how the Hailfire SMS does against his army. 16 shots that ignore cover and LOS will be painful for his lone summoning characters.

I tend to agree with the Ghostkeels as well, but suffer the same problems as Riptides. However, I do want to try an OSC with three GKs and see how that does. I was doing some mathhammer and Ghostkeels at BS 5 is pretty scary. This is actually my current plan, once I get enough Ghostkeels. I was thinking Ghostkeels equipped with CIR, TL FB and target locks, alongside two four man stealth teams to act as clean up.

I suppose I should have done the stats on Drones as well. I'll look into that. I suppose needing 12 drones to kill a spawn unit isn't the worst idea. I guess I usually have the Drones in the Drone-net I make them Marker Drones.

And yes, he's fielding a legal list. It's complicated and I won't try to replicate it from memory, but I've gone over it with a fine toothed comb because the way he put it together seemed sketchy. However, it is legal. Just convoluted.

Many thanks for the ideas.

Cheers!

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ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
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Re: Chaos Spawn

Post#6 » Jan 27 2016 09:20

I've had some minor issues with Spawns in the past, but quickly realized that spammed Str 5/7 got wrid of them quickly. Wounds on 2/4's, and as Tau we have an abundance of both.
Note on the math, you do need to include a Markerlight source somewhere. Our non-TwinLinked platforms are not point-efficient without it.

As the last line. Spawns have no real saves, so combining overwatch get's them down fast. Broadsides with CDS are a real thing here (since his list doesn't seem to have much worth intercepting anyways)

-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
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