Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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Quartz
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Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#1 » May 20 2016 08:15

Hi ATT,

So me and a friend of mine have quite frequent battles and I just cannot seem to beat him!

He plays Ultra-Marines and usually takes a Terminator heavy or battle company themed list and whatever I try, from Riptide wing to Crisis deep strike to lots of Strikers, I cannot seem to overcome the pure staying power of Space Marines...

I know for a fact that he is taking Strike Force Ultra for our next battle which comes to 1850 out of 2000 points to utilise. (unsure what the remaining 150pts could be).
And I know he's taking Land Raiders (yes plural :::( ) and a Storm Raven to transport his Terminators. He usually uses Drop Pods to deep Strike Everything that can, oh and there will be a Venerable Dreadnought flying in with his 'Raven...

So Ive had a think and I've constructed a list that I believe could counter it, so here it is: (made with Battlescribe)

Formation Detachment - 1594pts

1x Ethereal Council - 165pts
-3x Ethereal w/ Homing beacon - 55pts each

1x Optimised Stealth Cadre - 475pts
-2x XV25 Stealth Battlesuits w/ Bonding Knife Ritual- 155pts each
--1x MV7 Marker Drone - 12pts
--2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ BC, EWO - 35pts each
--1x Stealth Shas'vre w/ FB, Markerlight and Target Lock, Velocity Tracker - 70pts
- 1x XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuits - 165pts
--1x Ghostkeel Shas'vre w/ Counterfire Defence System, Fusion Collider, TLFB, Velocity Tracker, 2x MV5 Stealth Drone - 165pts

Piranha Firestream Wing - 375pts
-5x Piranha w/ Advanced Targeting System, Disruption Pod, FB, 2x MV1 Gun Drone - 75pts each

Riptide Wing - 579pts
-3x Riptide Shas'vre w/ Advanced Targeting System, EWO, Ion Accelerator TL-Plasma Rifle - 193pts each

CAD - 406pts

HQ - 144pts
-2x Cadre Fireblade w/ 1x MV4 Shield Drone - 72pts each

Troops - 162pts
-2x Strike Team - 81pts
--9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Fast Attack - 100pts
-2x Tetra Scout Speeder Team
--1x Tetra w/ Disruption Pod - 50pts each

And there you have it, 2000pts of fire power.

Tactics:
so I have Tetras for Markerlight support,
Firestream for drone spam and maybe pop a Land Raider with those Meltas,
Fire Warriors each unit paired with a Fireblade and with the Ethereal council somewhere between them defending the backboard,
And the Stealth Cadre also Popping tanks and Aircraft (hopefully killing those inside)

Any suggestions are more than welcome, questions too.

Thanks guys!

Quartz
We gave them a chance at the greater good, now they die

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#2 » May 20 2016 08:25

Okay just some questions.

- Why a single Markerlight-Drone in your Stealthsuites (especially without drone controller on the 'vre)?
- Why the Bonding Knife Ritual on your Stealthsuites?

Rest looks fine even though i don't think the Ethereal Council is worth it. Those are three very easy to get Victory Points and since you plan to let them stay near your Firewarrior and Fireblades a few templates could really ruin your day there.

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Raverrn
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#3 » May 20 2016 12:01

You want your VT on models with lots of range, lots of shots and lots of wounds. The stealth Shas'vre has none of those things.

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Quartz
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#4 » May 20 2016 08:17

There are marker drones in both units of stealth suits, I could swap out the VT for another marker drone each and drone controller, that would be able to boost the BS enough not to miss. @Raverrn, the VT on the stealth suits and keel was obviously to take out flyers but I guess they wouldnt get within 9" for melta attack... So maybe keep to popping Land Raiders with them?

The bonding knife was because I had a few points spare but if you think they'd do better elsewhere then please share?

Same again with the Ethereal council, I just thought it'd be a good way to give the fire warriors more flexibility with storm of fire and/or the run and/or the feel no pain ones, in fact with a council I could give all things (mainly fire warriors) all four effects as I'd be able to enact 6 with 3 ethereals.
We gave them a chance at the greater good, now they die

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Agent00abe
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#5 » May 20 2016 09:44

Your Ethereal Council is a 165 pt sink that does what? Boost your Fire Warriors. You could get better dakka for those points else where. Also, homing beacon? For what? What's deepstriking in this list?
Next the council doesn't work like you think it does. As long as there is at least two Ethereals alive you automatically do all four powers.

Why Marker Drones with your Stealth Suits? with how you gave them target locks either part of your Stealth Suit is going to shoot at something it doesn't want to shoot at.
Why Velocity Trackers on suits whose guns have no business shooting at flyers?
Why Bonding Knife?

I am asking you these questions because if you can answer them your self you'll learn a great deal more than if we just gave you the answers.
What I can see you have the right gist of things. You just need to look at your list entries and think about what you want each of them to do, and if they can feasible do it. And what gear they need to do that.
Then ask your self if there is something that can do the job better.

I'll give you a hint. Riptides with VT and/or EWO works very well ;)

Good luck man :D

Edit: Oh dear I just noticed the Fireblades.
That's another 144pt you're spending on boosting Fire Warriors.
That's what? 309pt total spent on boosting 162pt worth of troops.
That is a lot eggs in your Fire Warrior basket!
Does this Railgun make me look fat?

tehlegend
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Shas'Ui
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#6 » May 21 2016 11:05

The VT on the melta is a moot point here. That Storm Raven has ceramite armor, so it ignores the melta rule.

As for.the rest of your force, I am of the opinion that if you are properly utilizing coordinated firepower, the markers provided by your tetras should be sufficient. The markers on your Stealth's don't seem necessary and to fire them would Rob you of the opportunity to fire that models main gun. The points from that plus the extra HQ's that are boosting your meager fire warriors could afford you a skyray which would solve your anti-aircraft and additional marker light preferences in one go if it's available.

The way I see it, focus fire.on one area of the board at a time, slow and strand as much of his mobility as you can, and save the riptides for last. Use those AP 2 large blasts on the biggest groupings you can.

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Quartz
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#7 » May 21 2016 07:07

Okay, how about this:

Removed VT from stealth suits but kept TL&marker (mostly for the TL, if this is still too much please say)

Removed VT from Ghostkeel

Removed Ethereal council and whole CAD and replaced it with an Uncombined force:
Buff commander with drone controller, two dual FB Crisis suits and three High Yield Broadsides with 6 missile drones. Have the Commander in with the broadside team.

Removed ATS on the Riptides and gave them VT to compliment their EWO ;)

My only area of doubt is around the stealth suits and whether or not I need a Shas'vre and the drones at all of just make him a Shas'ui (with FB or BC...?)

I am 20 points over at the moment...

And one last point, I don't get coordinated firepower with that army as I do not have a hunter cadre in the list (also I don't own a skyray, I've heard mixed things about it, though it is pretty high on my list)
We gave them a chance at the greater good, now they die

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Panzer
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#8 » May 21 2016 11:01

VT on the Ghostkeel is fine as long as you take the Ion weapon on him (much better than the fusion collider anyway).

You could just buy the target lock for your Stealth 'vre if you don't really want the markerlight on him anyway.

Afaik drone controller doesn't work on missile drones of the broadsides (just scratch the drones and buy them VT instead).

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#9 » May 22 2016 02:55

Whenever I run teams of Stealthsuits I almost always end up going for 1 or 2 identical teams like this.
StealthTeam
1x -Stealth Shas'vre FusionBlaster Markerlight&Targetlock
2x -Stealth BurstCannon
2x -Marker- or GunDrone (both have worked for me in the past, Marker usually since I'm short on Tetra's)

The Markerlight&Targetlock is rather point-efficient compared to other "Sargeant Markerlights" out there. The fact he can Targetlock away from his squad and fire both the FusionBlaster and Markerlight is just too usefull. Just my last game 1 of such squads was responsible for taking out multiple Hullpoints on a trio of Imp.Knights, whilst taking little in return-fire due to their 2+ cover.


I'd like to comment on the Ghostkeel, but since I don't own one it's mostly still estimates on my part.
IonRaker seems statistically better, and one of those models that really benefits from a VelocityTracker, more so then Riptides even.


-Derp
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Raverrn
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#10 » May 22 2016 04:27

If you're going to be running drones in a Stealth unit, you really should have a controller somewhere. It's cheap and you've always got a guy who isn't carrying anything.

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Panzer
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#11 » May 22 2016 05:11

Raverrn wrote:If you're going to be running drones in a Stealth unit, you really should have a controller somewhere. It's cheap and you've always got a guy who isn't carrying anything.


^this.
Also when you already take a drone with them take a second one as well. There is no point in doing something only half way (you already risk the double 1 testing with the 4th model in the unit and a 5th won't change that).

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Raverrn
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#12 » May 22 2016 05:30

Also also, if you have two drones and manage to get one of your silly Stealthmans killed you get to count the unit as T4.

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Quartz
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#13 » May 22 2016 08:09

DC doesn't work on the missile drones?!?
Damn that's annoying, I played them as it did work in our previous game and they wrecked! Maybe that's why, but the missile drones became more effective than the broadsides themselves.
That should be a thing in the next update, it should be all drones anyway as I'm assuming they use the same AI system. (Not to wish list too much)

I did however play them in a retaliation cadre so the broadsides could move and deep strike and that worked amazingly!

So I could swap out buff commander's DC for the stealth teams, also, does DC work with counterfire defence system? I.E. The commander has BS2 in overwatch and DC says uses the BS of the commander for shooting - so do the drones get BS2 in overwatch just because the Commander has 5pts worth of CDS?
We gave them a chance at the greater good, now they die

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ShasODerpy
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#14 » May 22 2016 11:25

Raverrn wrote:If you're going to be running drones in a Stealth unit, you really should have a controller somewhere. It's cheap and you've always got a guy who isn't carrying anything.
For just 2 Drones, that equals 4 points/model to make them BS3. One might say it's cheap, but in my humble opinion it's 8 points better spend elsewhere.

Raverrn wrote:Also also, if you have two drones and manage to get one of your silly Stealthmans killed you get to count the unit as T4.
A nice little bonus. Though I prefer to sacrifice the much cheaper Drones. They fully benefit from the squads Stealthfield, and the pair combined is cheaper then a single Stealthsuit.
Using them as Ablative wounds like that is another reason I wouldn't add any DroneControllers to this unit. They are expected to take the early wounds, so might aswell keep it cheap. (Not saying it's thé right way, simply that it's my preferred way).


Quartz wrote:So I could swap out buff commander's DC for the stealth teams, also, does DC work with counterfire defence system? I.E. The commander has BS2 in overwatch and DC says uses the BS of the commander for shooting - so do the drones get BS2 in overwatch just because the Commander has 5pts worth of CDS?
Faintly remember this from an earlier topic. The general consensus seemed to be that it does not because of the order in wich the modifiers are applied.

A normal Overwatch has you fire Snapshots at BS1. A CDS instead modifies that value to BS2.
The Commander's actual Ballistic Skill value is still BS5, wich the DC shares to the drones, only to be set back to BS1 (Snapshots). BS2 is not conferred because the Drones do not have a CDS.


Basically, the DC still works but causes the Drones to fire BS5 Snapshots. The Commander simply has a Wargear piece that says his Snapshots are resolved at BS2.



-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Engaging a Space marine Strike Force Ultra list

Post#15 » May 22 2016 11:39

ShasODerpy wrote:
Quartz wrote:So I could swap out buff commander's DC for the stealth teams, also, does DC work with counterfire defence system? I.E. The commander has BS2 in overwatch and DC says uses the BS of the commander for shooting - so do the drones get BS2 in overwatch just because the Commander has 5pts worth of CDS?
Faintly remember this from an earlier topic. The general consensus seemed to be that it does not because of the order in wich the modifiers are applied.

A normal Overwatch has you fire Snapshots at BS1. A CDS instead modifies that value to BS2.
The Commander's actual Ballistic Skill value is still BS5, wich the DC shares to the drones, only to be set back to BS1 (Snapshots). BS2 is not conferred because the Drones do not have a CDS.


Basically, the DC still works but causes the Drones to fire BS5 Snapshots. The Commander simply has a Wargear piece that says his Snapshots are resolved at BS2.

I agree on that interpretation.

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