Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
Vailex
Shas
Posts: 35

Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#1 » Jun 05 2016 07:43

So I am going to attend the Nova Open this year and there are multiple people bringing this nasty new death star and I am trying to find a way to beat it with Tau. Here is the Nova FAQ for reference http://40kfaq.com/

Long story short Nova Open is very similiar to ITC with the few exceptions.
1. Invis is ruled by RAW.
2. Hunter Contingent is by RAW meaning we can share USR's when combining fire, just not the guys split firing.
3. Destroyer weapons do 3 wounds when you roll a 6, not D6.

Here is the completely broken (in terms of math) Iron Hands list

Iron Hands Angels of Death Detachment containing the following
1 Demi Company bare bones
-1 Chapter Master on bike with Gorgon's chain, power fist, artificer armor, SS
-Command Squad with Apothecary
-3 Tacs in Rhinos
-1 Attack Bike or Speeder
-1 Dev squad in rhino with 2 Grav cannons
-3 Techmarines on bikes

1 Honor of the Ancients Aux
-1 Ironclad Dread

1 Librarius Conclave
-4 ML 2 Libby's with various weapons on bikes

Inquisitor Detachment
-1 Xenos Inq with Skulls, Rad, and Psychostroke grenades


Basically all the bikes get together with the Tech Marines, Inquisitor and the librarians in one big death ball. The goal is to get 2 powers, Invis and Veil of time and channel them on 2+.

What this comes to is snap firing at them, then they get to reroll saves, and finally the unit has a 3+ FNP with the Chapter Master having a 2+ FNP. Now the only thing you can pray for right now is either they don't get one of those powers, (mainly Veil of Time), and that you can get some d-weapon hits with stomps. The issue is that invis forces your marker lights to snap fire which limits your D missiles. The psychostroke grenades can negate your assault power from your Storm Surges as well.

So I am calling on the Tau Collective to help me build a list around the Hunter Contingent to defeat this. Or I can just bring 3 knights with some allies and hope for the best.

Here is my list so far based on the models i have...

[spoiler=List]Hunter Cadre (1188pts)
XV8 Commander Crisis Suit (50pts)
Command and Control Node (15pts), Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite (20pts), Puretide Engram Neurochip (15pts)
XV104 Riptide Battlesuits (190pts)
Early Warning Override (5pts), Ion Accelerator (5pts), Twin-linked Smart Missile System
Pathfinder Team (55pts)
5x Pathfinder (55pts)
Pathfinder Team (55pts)
5x Pathfinder (55pts)
KV128 Stormsurge (438pts)
Advanced Targeting System (3pts), Early Warning Override (5pts), Pulse Driver Cannon (15pts), Shield Generator (50pts), Twin-linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector (5pts)
Broadside (70pts)
Early Warning Override (5pts), Twin-linked High-Yield Missile Pod, Twin-linked Smart Missile System
Broadside (70pts)
Early Warning Override (5pts), Twin-linked High-Yield Missile Pod, Twin-linked Smart Missile System
Troops (175pts)
Breacher Team (45pts)
5x Fire Warrior with Pulse Blaster (45pts)
Kroot Carnivores (65pts)
10x Kroot (60pts), Kroot Hound (5pts)
Kroot Carnivores (65pts)
10x Kroot (60pts), Kroot Hound (5pts)

Optimized Stealth Cadre (628pts)
XV25 Stealth Battlesuits (95pts)
Stealth Shas'ui with Burst Cannon (30pts), Stealth Shas'ui with Burst Cannon (30pts)
Stealth Shas'ui with Fusion Blaster (35pts)
XV25 Stealth Battlesuits (95pts)
Stealth Shas'ui with Burst Cannon (30pts), Stealth Shas'ui with Burst Cannon (30pts)
Stealth Shas'ui with Fusion Blaster (35pts)
XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuits (438pts)
Ghostkeel Shas'vre (148pts)
Advanced Targeting System (3pts), Cyclic Ion Raker, Early Warning Override (5pts), Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (10pts)
Ghostkeel Shas'vre (145pts)
Cyclic Ion Raker, Target Lock (5pts), Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (10pts)
Ghostkeel Shas'vre (145pts)
Cyclic Ion Raker, Target Lock (5pts), Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (10pts)

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (34pts)
Bolt Pistol, Carapace Armour, Chainsword, 3x Servo Skulls (9pts)
Independent Character, Psyk-out Grenades, Servo Skulls, Stubborn[/spoiler]


I have played this IH deathstar 2 times now and it comes down to what powers they roll and if I can get a lucky 6 stomp in. Its frustrating and I know Ill see plenty of these at Nova. I was thinking of dropping the Riptide and broadsides and bringing 4 or 5 Crisis suits with Plasma guns to force more invuls. It would help I guess. Or try to find more points for another Storm Surge. I just really didnt want to by another Storm Surge and paint it up.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1150

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#2 » Jun 05 2016 11:50

Well as with any deathstar where you can't force your way through you either try to ignore it to some degree and play for objectives and such or you try to take it from multiple sides so he can't take everything with his chapter master.
There is no 100% save way to defeat such a nasty deathstar though. Stomps can work fine if you get a bit lucky, markerlights help a lot against snap shooting and being mobile is key if you cant force your way through (which you most likely can't against this one).

Also make sure to provide some speed bumps for the death star so it can't take out a lot of your points with a single charge.

Vailex
Shas
Posts: 35

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#3 » Jun 06 2016 07:41

Panzer wrote:Well as with any deathstar where you can't force your way through you either try to ignore it to some degree and play for objectives and such or you try to take it from multiple sides so he can't take everything with his chapter master.
There is no 100% save way to defeat such a nasty deathstar though. Stomps can work fine if you get a bit lucky, markerlights help a lot against snap shooting and being mobile is key if you cant force your way through (which you most likely can't against this one).

Also make sure to provide some speed bumps for the death star so it can't take out a lot of your points with a single charge.


Ya I agree. I can wrap some things in Kroot. The Breachers do surprisingly well being ap3. A good player is going to position those 2+ armor saves. I feel my current list has enough tank busting power so I should really drop the broadsides as they are not mobile at all and get some crisis with double plasma rifles in there. They might have a chance to keep away for a couple turns.

Usually the deathstar is going to multi assault so you will usually only get 1 round of speed bumping off.

I find that my Riptide really does nothing for my army. He could go in and charge with the storm surge but will likely get swept. Having advanced targeting should help. Ill just do my best to put all my precision shots on that Apothecary.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1150

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#4 » Jun 06 2016 10:41

The Broadsides are fine imo. They can keep the deathstars attention to the front since even though they don't have AP2 on their main weaponry (HRR is really not worth it) they put out enough wounds to force saves.
The Riptide should do fine with the Ion pie plate. Lots of AP2 wounds and he is pretty mobile. Maybe take TL Plasma Rifles instead of a TL Smart Missile System as well.
However i'm not so sure about 3 Ghostkeels in the OSC. Normally it's pretty strong but i don't think it would help you a lot against such a deathstar unit.

Whether he can multi assault you and put his 2+ Armor guys between all of your hard hitting units or not entirely depends on how the game goes and how good you and he is though. It's not easy to fight against a Deathstar if you decide to do so but not impossible (kinda the whole point of playing a Deathstar).

Vailex
Shas
Posts: 35

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#5 » Jun 06 2016 11:06

The problem with the riptide in this situation is that he cannot snapfire the large blast ion weapon. The issue with the broadsides is, though they may place some wounds on a model, they are rerolling 2+ saves and then rolling 3+ FNP (2+ with the chapter master). Its hard to get through that numerically.

The OSC in my list is Key for taking out things like Knights, Gladius, or anything mechanized. Though I could reduce it to 2 Ghostkeels instead of 3. I just find 3 to be perfect for this formation.

In taking out this deathstar list, they are good for applying more wounds from a different direction, possibly getting to the Apothecary. I would keep them on a flank. They can effectively destroy the rest of the detachment while the rest of my army deals with the deathstar.

Varyn
Shas
Posts: 96

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#6 » Jun 06 2016 11:21

I feel like this is wrong to say; but I wouldn't want to even play against someone using that combination, it utterly takes the fun out of the game. Snap firing at T5 units, with a 3++ and rerollable saves.

Lets say you fire 100 fire warriors at the unit, you boost them to BS5, which means you get 83 hits, 42 of those hits wound. 6 get through the artificier armour, 1 gets through the armour save reroll and then that 1 wound needs to get through a 2+ fnp, which equates to 0.17 wounds on the chapter master (assuming he has invisibility and veil of time up)

some of the maths might be a little off, but it's close enough, so that means you need 600 shots to get 1 wound through (speaking purely from a statistical point of view)

I just cannot see any way that you can have a fun game against that kind of list.

Your only hope of killing it, is to spam markerlights at the unit til you get enough and then hit it with loads of D missiles, everything else is completely futile.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to sound depressing! just thinking through some of the maths and what a d@%$ punching list that is.

GeorgeJetson
Shas
Posts: 139

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#7 » Jun 06 2016 11:26

Marine named characters are still only T4, right? My suggestion might be OSC with Overcharged Ions + Wall of Mirrors. I suppose they've disallowed fortification networks, so the Darkstrider + Breacher CAD and Gun Fort trick won't work-- that would be a pretty nasty counter.

The only problem with this I guess are Marines on bikes are T5, IIRC and Invisibility means you cannot fire template weapons. Does Ignores Cover have any effect on that? I suppose it wouldn't, but for some reason I was thinking Invisibility worked like a cover save (or is it that ITC ruled it that way?).

I just cannot see any way that you can have a fun game against that kind of list.

Your only hope of killing it, is to spam markerlights at the unit til you get enough and then hit it with loads of D missiles, everything else is completely futile.


Do they weigh dice at these larger tournaments? Otherwise, you could do some interesting "modifications" to your dice when you face off against these lists. :crafty:

Here's a bucket of 6s. Fight statistical anomalies with "statistical anomalies."

"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."
Last edited by GeorgeJetson on Jun 06 2016 11:30, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1150

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#8 » Jun 06 2016 11:28

Well i think it's obvious enough that it's a super cheesy opponent and that you either have to dedicate your whole tactic and list to take it out or you try to ignore the deathstar/keep it busy while taking out the rest and going for objectives.......or you accept that it might not be worth it to tailoring your list towards such an opponent because it would make the list too weak against other lists.
It's a tournament after all and sometimes you just can't win every match up with the faction you are playing no matter what list you write.

Marine named characters are still only T4, right? My suggestion might be OSC with Overcharged Ions + Wall of Mirrors. I suppose they've disallowed fortification networks, so the Darkstrider + Breacher CAD and Gun Fort trick won't work-- that would be a pretty nasty counter.

The deathstar is on bikes so it's T5 and those are the only real problem in such a list.

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nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 628

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#9 » Jun 06 2016 01:10

I have not played against this particular deathstar build but I do believe that a couple of typical anti-deathstar weapons are still relevant and useful

1. The culexus assassin
2. Plenty of sniper kroot

So I do not expect the assassin to be able to charge across the table to shut down their powers but to an extent it does not need to - I out-shoot a list like that so it has to come to me or just watch as I delete the rest of the supporting (and objective scoring) army. I position the assassin ahead of my lines to block out a large part of the table with its null zone - this creates channels on either flank which the enemy can move down so I put kroot in those channels.

So long as there is decent enough terrain to hide the very small culexus model this leaves the opponent with the choice of spending multiple turns on chaff before getting to grips with the main Tau force (which can relocate as soon as it sees which flank is under attack) or forcing their way through the middle and spending at least a turn right under the Tau guns with no defensive buffs. If they go through the middle use all the precision shots and positioning tricks you know to put the wounds onto key models and to avoid hitting the Chapter Master tank.

If the tournament is unlikely to have the right sort of terrain then it gets harder because his supporting units can eliminate the assassin - in that case I would strongly consider one of the new Munitorum Crates to deliver your assassin. Other than that he needs deep-strikers to kill the assassin and so long as you have adequate numbers of EWO you can deal with any number of those that he can fit into a death star build

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1150

Re: Engaging the Iron Hands Death Star

Post#10 » Jun 06 2016 01:46

Kroot-Snipers are indeed nice. Maybe AFP Crisis could work as well. While it doesn't wound as good as a sniper rifle does it doesn't require to hit 6s to actually snipe since it's a barrage weapon.
11 sniper kroot are about 1,5 times as expensive as a singe dual AFP Crisis suit.
I have no experience and haven't made any calculations but it could be a nice alternative to sniper kroot....maybe someone can do some quick calculating here (i don't have any of the formular required for this).

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