Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

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Raikoh067
Shas'La
Posts: 81

Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#1 » Aug 13 2016 09:38

In the last couple months, my local meta has seen an incredible increase in the number of Knights on the table. We use itc rules at our shop, with 1850pt games. There are about 15 people that typically play there, and about 6 or 7 of them use at least one Knight in every game, and sometimes I'll see somebody running a formation of three.

So because of all this, I have learned the hard way that tau has a hard time bringing these guys down, let alone three. With the sheer amount of Steangth 5 through 7 we have, it's hard to find enough room in my army to put in st8+ and ap2-.

In the last game I played I had 6 squads of dual melta suits, two suits each, all deepstriking, along wth my commander with the same build. Backing them up was a drone net with markerlights and a y'vahra. Long story short I ended up only doing 4hp to a Knight, with 9 of my 13 total suits coming in. Then the y'vahra dealt a solid 5 hp due to its 3+d3 haywire shots. One Knight down, another to go...

And thats when I realised: haywire is way better and killing Knights than anything else in our codex. Single hard hitting shots my take a HP off, but you need VOLUME of shots to nock off lots of HPs. And Knights don't care about pen hits at all unless you get a 7 on the table, so we just need tons of glances. So I came up with this list:

HQ
Commander R'alai

Troops
2× 10 breachers with 5++ and haywire
9 breach erst with 5++ and haywire (9 due to points limit)

Elites
2 suits with dual BC
3 suits with dual BC

Fast attack
2× Y'vahra

LoW
Stormsurge with blastcannon.

Formations
Drone net VX 1-0


Now this list might be a bit overkill in haywire and lacking in other areas (the BC suits are there to help with that), but against a list where 80% of their points are knights, it's almost reasonable. My plan is to jump up the two nova charged yvahra's and unload a bunch of haywire shots into one. If I'm lucky on the d3 this could kill one, especially if I get 1st turn. The stormsurge will march up with this posse of haywire grenade FWs, and probably end up in melee after firing his D shots. Once that happens I plan on covering it's feet in grenades and watching the lightshow.

For clearification, this thread is not to review my list, it's for discussion on effective ways of dealing with Imperial Knights. And this is just my idea. So discuss away!

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 519

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#2 » Aug 14 2016 04:34

A small (but not insurmountable) wrench in your plans would be the draft (stated to be stone-set in content and only modifiable for clarity) of the WH40k FAQ, in which the use of a grenade in melee is as limited as the use of a grenade at range: only one model per unit equipped can use it.

That is to say, only one of your breachers in each squad will be using a grenade per phase, be it shooting or melee. :sad:

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Posts: 787

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#3 » Aug 14 2016 06:11

Melta from multiple fronts.

Optimised Stealth Cadre

Y'vahras

Not much aside those.

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Chris
Shas'La
Posts: 191

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#4 » Aug 14 2016 10:02

I think a SS, Y'vahra and Firestream Wing are all good for taking out Knights. Especially the Firestream wing can do surprisingly good against knights with all those Missiles.

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Raikoh067
Shas'La
Posts: 81

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#5 » Aug 14 2016 03:12

Unusualsuspect wrote:A small (but not insurmountable) wrench in your plans would be the draft (stated to be stone-set in content and only modifiable for clarity) of the WH40k FAQ, in which the use of a grenade in melee is as limited as the use of a grenade at range: only one model per unit equipped can use it.

That is to say, only one of your breachers in each squad will be using a grenade per phase, be it shooting or melee. :sad:


That's really strange and kinda contridicts our codex, only because it makes us take grenades on everybody or none. What's the point of being forced to take 10 grenades when the squad can only use one per turn? If that's the case is only for in case some die. It makes grenades not worth their points.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Posts: 441

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#6 » Aug 14 2016 05:03

Raikoh067 wrote:
Unusualsuspect wrote:A small (but not insurmountable) wrench in your plans would be the draft (stated to be stone-set in content and only modifiable for clarity) of the WH40k FAQ, in which the use of a grenade in melee is as limited as the use of a grenade at range: only one model per unit equipped can use it.

That is to say, only one of your breachers in each squad will be using a grenade per phase, be it shooting or melee. :sad:


That's really strange and kinda contridicts our codex, only because it makes us take grenades on everybody or none. What's the point of being forced to take 10 grenades when the squad can only use one per turn? If that's the case is only for in case some die. It makes grenades not worth their points.

The point of making us take grenades on all models is so that you can use the grenades no matter how many models you lose. It's irritating, I know, but that seems to be how it is. No other codex has it better.
The days of goodly English is went

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Macknight
Shas'La
Posts: 298

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#7 » Aug 14 2016 06:27

Raikoh067 wrote:
Unusualsuspect wrote:A small (but not insurmountable) wrench in your plans would be the draft (stated to be stone-set in content and only modifiable for clarity) of the WH40k FAQ, in which the use of a grenade in melee is as limited as the use of a grenade at range: only one model per unit equipped can use it.

That is to say, only one of your breachers in each squad will be using a grenade per phase, be it shooting or melee. :sad:


That's really strange and kinda contridicts our codex, only because it makes us take grenades on everybody or none. What's the point of being forced to take 10 grenades when the squad can only use one per turn? If that's the case is only for in case some die. It makes grenades not worth their points.


Its there to prevent grenade abuse on the TT, think every member of a squad throwing their grenades in shoot, cc. For example, elder swooping hawks DS throwing their grenades, or drop pod marines throwing their...
For the greater good!

Bolter&Rail
Shas'Saal
Posts: 60

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#8 » Aug 15 2016 04:30

While not very point effective a crisis squad with missile pods and multispectrum and puretide chip can drop 1 a turn if you can get side armour or get around its shield...

I used this combined with a Firebase Support Cadre in my last list to be able to take down a knight on the first turn if the dice are decent. Granted against a 3 knight list this isnt goo enough so agree that Y'Vahra and melta suits are the better route. Always helps to have multiple options from multiple fronts to free up angles that arent shielded.

I got to imagine a Stormsurge, 2 Y'Vahras and some melta suits could chip away at them pretty nicely. Throw some tankhunter special rules with crisis suits or the Firebase Support and I think you kill 1.5+ a turn. Str7 spam will take them down if buffed enough...and even if just 1 a turn, but turn 3 if you're still alive your army is looking pretty good =D

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nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 685

Re: Figuring out how to bring down multiple Knights

Post#9 » Aug 15 2016 05:23

It is quite easy for a Tau Cadre to have Str 7 weapons pretty much everywhere and fundamentally Knights are just AV 13/12 vehicles which die to Str 7 shooting. Add in Tank Hunters from the multiple sources we have access to that rule and you can take them down pretty quickly.

Against an entire list of Imperial Knights there is a problem with avoiding heavy casualties while you whittle them away - they are fast moving and deadly to even our MCs in combat. The classic counters to this are mobility, MSU and bubble-wrap and depending on your preferred list style you choose your balance of the 3 options to keep enough of your Cadre alive to finish the job. I use cheap kroot screens to bait charges and then hit them with another wave of S7 shooting on overwatch, it really does chip off hull points quite well - the kroot then use "our weapons are useless" to ensure they do not get stuck in combat and prevent me from finishing the Knight off.

Personally I love the way the Hunter Cadre special rule Ambushes & Feints lets our units run around the shielded face before shooting Knights down. Fusion Blaster/Seeker Missile armed Piranha are spectacular in this role but pretty much anything that is at least tolerably mobile can take advantage of this. Anything with Fusion Blasters will be a threat to Imperial Knights but the ability to reliably by-pass that annoying invulnerable save really does promote Piranha to the top echelons for this task. I have not tried it but massed Seeker Missiles from a Piranha Firestream might be pretty much as good.

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