Balancing for a new player..

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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SeengingPeipes
Shas'Saal
Posts: 20

Balancing for a new player..

Post#1 » Oct 10 2016 05:57

Hi guys!

I have a bit of an odd question, but i thought the collective knowledge of ATT could assist, you've never let me down before!

I regularly play with a chaos space marine player who has a huge amount of models (marines, cultists, possesed, hellbrutes, helldrakes, zerkers, raptors, rhonos, preds, land raider, helldrake, fiends and more)

And the problem is.. no matter how much i try to go easy on him, he always loses. And he's getting a bit disheartened. i have done all i can short of not shooting certain units or outfitting crap units.

Instead of asking how i can beat chaos,

can you offer insights in how a chaos player may exploit the weaknesses of the Tau and form strategies to overcome or match our forces ? (we already know he needs to get in CQC) :)

Thanks
Hot Fuzz ruined it. "Fer tha grea'er good" :P

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materpillar
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 156

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#2 » Oct 10 2016 09:47

More information would be helpful here. A lot of this depends on what points you play, what mission types you play, and what type of army list you run (how suit heavy, formations ok, etc)? Also, how much of his loses are as a result of a difference in codex power and how much are they a result of player error?

I'm going to assume from your signature that you usually run 1000k lists and that what you have in your description is a normal list that you field.


Many people I play with lose the game against tau before my first shooting phase and they don't even know it. Intentionally spend more time going over your pre-game/deployment decisions.

Step 1: Run more Line of Sight blocking terrain. You think you have enough? Run more anyway. If the tau guns can't shoot more than 12" because they literally can't see more than 12" it changes the game dramatically. Be aware that tons of LOS blocking terrain makes crisis suits much better too, as their assault jump is even more important. However a lack of LOS blocking terrain just turns the game into a turkey shoot which is lame.

Step 2: Put taller terrain the the middle of the table and shorter terrain towards the outside. This is goes right along with Step 1. If there's great lines of fire because of ruins towering over the cover in the midfield you're going to be shot to pieces.


I'm not particularly knowledgeable on chaos army lists, so I won't be able to tell him what units most effectively accomplish these goals. Now assuming that list is what you normally run at 1k against him. He should do the following things.

Goal 1) Have a couple ways to threaten/kill the entire pathfinder squad turn 1. Not turn 2 or 3, first turn.

Goal 2) Stop shooting shield drones with lascannons/plasma/melta. There's a million shield drones in that list. Kill them with bolters (which also forces leadership tests) then hit the squishy fellows with lascannons.

Goal 3) In the likely event you're running a heldrake, don't position its AV10 towards the broadside or firewarriors. Statistically it should take multiple turns to get shot down if you avoid that. Pretty sure a heldrake w/flamer should give this tau list an absolute nightmare with proper positioning. With proper position there is no feasible way I could see it beating 2.

Goal 4) You need target saturation. Don't have a slow drip of units hitting the tau lines. If that happens you're going to just lose a unit at a turn and not make any progress. If you are in range of those firewarriors rapid fire range, they're going to absolutely melt any non-vehicle they shoot.

Goal 5) This list seems very very weak to vehicles with AV 12+. There is 1 FB on a stealth team which should be avoidable if it infiltrates and the odds that it does anything if it is in range is minimal. The crisis team is the only reliable threat to vehicles and they're only very strong at killing one thing per turn. If you let them get into a AV10 arc they'll be able to kill 2 vehicles consistently. If you can present them only AV12, they'll only kill one vehicle (statistically). Then you assault and murder them dead. Afterward you have a field day killing the rest of the army dead.

SeengingPeipes wrote:And the problem is.. no matter how much i try to go easy on him, he always loses. And he's getting a bit disheartened. i have done all i can short of not shooting certain units or outfitting crap units

Next game do the following
1) Have him bring a landraider
2) Bring literally nothing that can kill the landraider (0 melta, 0 railguns, 0 monsterous creatures)

As long as he avoids immobilizing himself on a rock this guarantees him a giant tank of doom that'll roll around and kill stuff every turn and 1 successful assault (since you can't stop him from disembarking literally ontop of you).

Glancing at your 1k list I'd also recommend swapping your broadside into the HRR variant and swapping your crisis suits to burst cannons. Getting armor saves ignored is one of the worst feelings for marine players, and the HYMP broadside is insanely strong.
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fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 192

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#3 » Oct 17 2016 05:05

Have him bring a raptor talon. Raptors for melta and other special weapons. Warp talons for melee death. They get to assault on the turn they deepstrike so they can get past tau firepower.
There is also a formation with cultists that come back (the unit that is) on a 4+ and get to outflank when they do.
A daemon prince of Tzeentch will provide a close combat monster and a psychic one. Give black mace for laughs.
Then there is the greatest tool in their arsenal the cyclopian cabal. On top of tons of really scary psy powers they can also force your units to shoot for them.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3172

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#4 » Oct 18 2016 01:26

tbh the Raptor Talon would be a terrible suggestion against any halfway serious Tau list. We have way too much interceptor and overwatch capabilities for that.

fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 192

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#5 » Oct 18 2016 12:37

Yes but he doesn't use that. Would make his opponent feel great to get it to work.
Otherwise obliterators are a good choice too. Their new formation while not super strong does improve their fire output.
Really just have him pick up the black legion supplement and Traitor's Hate.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3172

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#6 » Oct 18 2016 12:39

Yeah but he shouldn't get too used to it or else he might get crushed against other Tau player.

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SeengingPeipes
Shas'Saal
Posts: 20

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#7 » Oct 19 2016 04:44

Thanks guys!

He's going to pick up black legion and traitors hate soon,
and he really likes the idea of the raptor talon.

the last game we played was very close and only swung my way because my broadside got a pen leading to weapon destroyed on his helldrake and i managed to jsj the ever-loving crap out of his HQ (Typhus).

He was trying out a nurgle list with T5 plague marines(w/rhino) and a helldrake, defiler and cultists

Cultists were only there to bubblewrap typhus. not a bad list but could benefit from more 3+ or better saves.

My crisis suits were the saving grace, as always!
Hot Fuzz ruined it. "Fer tha grea'er good" :P

fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 192

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#8 » Oct 20 2016 12:14

Oh no.
He needs to stop using a defiler. Horribly overcosted.
Typhus too unfortunately. Generic chaos lord of nurgle on a bike is much scarier.
He needs to focus on speed and number of threats.
Also psychic powers. They're one of the few advantages CSM have over Tau.
That Tzeentch Daemon prince is still highly recommended.

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Trevak Dal
Shas
Posts: 87

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#9 » Dec 18 2016 04:40

The way for chaos-or any "near" combat army to beat Tau is threat overload. My friend mains Space Wolves and Flesh Tearers, and he doesn't utilize their better units and I tend to beat him everytime (I run Crisis heavy Enclave lists with one, maybe two riptides but I got both configurations and I usually deep strike them; its cinematic like Titanfall)

How I play MY chaos against Tau is to be brutal and take very few upgrades. Rhinos and guys over everything else. I don't like marines on bikes, they are just...goofy looking, but I do take raptors, but I run them behind the rhino wall advancing as fast as possible towards the Tau lines.

My rhinos start at 40 points because the dirge caster is a 5 point "No Overwatch for you" bubble pretty far off its hull, especially if you got a lot of them on table.

Individual Chaos Spawn, or small packs of Chaos Spawn are excellent for grabbing hold of problematic units like Riptides, broadsides and the like.

Chaos doesn't really have much ability for direct turn 1 removal of units outside of super close up bolters out of a rhino, but it leaves them open to being blasted off the table and chaos doesn't have combat squads to at least force two units on the Tau player.

So...5 man chaos marine squads with one special (plasma gun) and a meltabomb on the champ/Sargent in a rhino with dirge caster.

Now he might be tempted to take chosen...And with some of the new...Warband tactics from traitor legions that could be viable...He's paying Grey Knight prices for not a Storm Bolter, Not a Power/force weapon, not deep striking pseudo Sternguard that doesn't have a proper drop pod or special ammo. And you can't even give all of the potential 10 guys weapon upgrades...so yeah.

And the Dark Vengeance chosen all have close combat upgrades...They are really good as HQ or Champion conversion fodder, if you are putting power weapons on t4 3+ save guys who almost cost 20 points per guy base, he should consider terminators instead, as they get power weapons standard, plus a 2+ 5++. I like 3 man termicide squads for their symmetry to Tau crisis drop squads, 3 like Combi weapons, a power fist, a maul on the champ and an axe on the other guy.

If he bought the black Legion and traitors hate books...Oh I'm sorry for him, because traitor legions has all the black Legion formations without having to pay for veterans of the long war (Chaos' army wide special rule like ATSKNF, but they actually had to pay for).

Traitors hate had some great stuff in it...It just wasn't worth $75 (again...all of those formations are in traitor legions...)

The raptor talon is circumstantial, but I think using Night Lords warband tactics (modifiers to enemy leadership through increased fear checks) could be nasty to Tau...it is just getting them to land where you want.

Some of the legion tactics don't allow for marks, or require a certain mark, and most legions restrict which special characters you can bring (Black Legion doesn't allow any special characters other than Abaddon for the benefit of the BL warband tactics which are similar to the Chaos Warband formation but slightly worse because the Warband Formation has every unit in it objective secured...While the black Legion one isn't.)
Trophies for the Hunter's den.

fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 192

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#10 » Jan 08 2017 05:17

This discussion happened well before anyone knew about the legions book.
At least he has some cool fluff and he was able to use the rules when he wanted to.
The legion rules did make chaos far better and fluffier from what I've seen.

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SeengingPeipes
Shas'Saal
Posts: 20

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#11 » Feb 14 2017 09:48

Thanks for all the advice!

He's got all the new books and read through the thread, our matches are now pretty even :p
Hot Fuzz ruined it. "Fer tha grea'er good" :P

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
Posts: 89

Re: Balancing for a new player..

Post#12 » Feb 20 2017 12:13

Also you could accept that Tau are more competitve than CSM and give him a 15-20% points bonus.

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