Ynnari rules discussion

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nic
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Ynnari rules discussion

Post#1 » Feb 04 2017 09:25

With the Black Library preview available some of the rules for the new Ynnari faction are emerging.

This is a new 4th faction of Eldar (now generically the Aeldari) which has a new special rule. With only the glossary entries to go from I would hesitate to state with certainty what limits this might have but essentially the key rule here is Soulburst.

When a unit has a Soulburst it can immediately take an action; this can be a normal move, a shooting/run/turbo-boost action or it can immediately declare and resolve a charge. A given unit can only take one Soulburst action per turn - at first glance it appears that this would mean one in the Ynnari players turn and possibly one in the opposing turn.

The main trigger for a Soulburst would be an Aeldari unit being destroyed when within 7" of a non-vehicle Ynnari unit - which may then Soulburst. There do seem to be another couple of ways to do this with a relic weapon or a psychic power - and one formation that allows all the units within it to Soulburst together if any one of them qualifies to Soulburst.

[edit] On re-reading the Soulburst happens when any unit is destroyed within 7" of a non-vehicle Ynnari unit. The rule that grants this is Strength from Death which looks to be the new faction special rule, probably replacing Power from Pain or Battle Focus as appropriate. The individual power-ups of the new characters are what only happens on the death of Aeldari.

I can see some very powerful applications of that one rule alone if it stands as I see it now and MSU Eldar armies may just have become significantly nastier in any game without kill points. I thought it would be worth us having a discussion thread for this as further details emerge.

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SinisterSamurai
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#2 » Feb 05 2017 01:06

There's not much that can be done to counter something like that. Units being destroyed is a natural result of gameplay, and is something that almost every faction aims to do. I've already seen some strategy proposals for forcing your Farseer to die from perils of the warp to trigger multiple soulbursts on turn 1. (This is inherently flawed, as only one unit benefits per destroyed unit).

While it will be important to know what units or formations gain Strength From Death, if it is indeed an army-wide special rule, there's only a few real tactical options at our disposal.

You can focus less on Multiple Small Units and begin investing in blobs again, to make your own units a bit tankier and give fewer opportunities for the opponent to gain Strength from Death.

You can spread your units out and try to keep your distance. If your unit is destroyed outside of the 7" bubble, the opponent doesn't gain a bonus.

An alternative is to attempt mass tarpitting. Units locked in combat, gone-to-ground, or falling back don't get a soulburst. If the new Eldar are by some miracle vulnerable to pinning, then maybe pulse carbines might see more use.

If you're losing an assault, you might volunteer to fail certain leadership checks to make your unit run away, rather than be destroyed utterly.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#3 » Feb 05 2017 09:37

SinisterSamurai wrote:There's not much that can be done to counter something like that. Units being destroyed is a natural result of gameplay, and is something that almost every faction aims to do. I've already seen some strategy proposals for forcing your Farseer to die from perils of the warp to trigger multiple soulbursts on turn 1. (This is inherently flawed, as only one unit benefits per destroyed unit).


While that is true generally, IIRC there was at least one formation/special rule that allowed for multiple units to benefit from the same destroyed unit trigger.

In terms of addressing the rules, I feel there's simply too little that's actually known about the composition of enemy forces. The extent to which being within 7" of the Ynnari is avoidable is going to depend heavily on what forces the formations granting Strength From Death ("SFD") allow the Ynnari to take.

Overall and taken at face value, SFD seems to be significantly more versatile than existing Eldar army-wide special rules (which most seem to think get replaced by SFD), but at the cost of unreliability and rarity. At its best, it could mean nearly doubling the Ynnari's firepower, which could be a very daunting prospect.

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Jefffar
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#4 » Feb 05 2017 09:49

My concern, if I read this right, is that it may allow a unit to win combat, destroy the opposing unit, then immediately charge another unit.

Please let me know if I am missing something in the way this rule works.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#5 » Feb 05 2017 10:42

Jefffar wrote:My concern, if I read this right, is that it may allow a unit to win combat, destroy the opposing unit, then immediately charge another unit.

Please let me know if I am missing something in the way this rule works.


Yup, thats right. The Soulburst rule shown on bols (and I'm going to assume that it's accurate, we'll know for sure on the weekend) tells you how to resolve it though. If a Soulburst unit destroys the unit its in CC with, at the end of that initiative step it can make a charge move as if it was your Charge Sub-phase into another enemy unit and then you continue to resolve the Initiative steps as before ie: you continue from whatever the next lowest initiative step is.

The thing is, its quite likely that the SoulBursting unit has already had most/all of its attacks at its much higher, World War Z, zombie space elf initiative. So they probably won't dish out many/any attacks from the Soulbursting unit and its likely (as most other armies have lower initiative) that the other unit will get to swing back at them.

And they won't count as charging in the next turn so won't get any bonus attacks for doing it. It would be situational but I'd expect the Aeldari player to only do this if they wanted to avoid getting charged by that unit in their opponents next turn.

Whats more likely is they'll use the Soulburst-shooting ability straight after winning CC...
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#6 » Feb 05 2017 11:07

And they won't count as charging in the next turn so won't get any bonus attacks for doing it. It would be situational but I'd expect the Aeldari player to only do this if they wanted to avoid getting charged by that unit in their opponents next turn.


Not only avoid getting charged, but to tie up a shooting unit and/or prevent that Ynnari unit from being destroyed during the enemy player's phase. This seems particularly relevant to Tau players such as ourselves, what with our notoriously weak CC capabilities and our similarly notoriously powerful shooting phase.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#7 » Feb 06 2017 08:11

Out-of-turn activations? Ugh. Interceptor already makes games longer - that one will make them even more...

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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#8 » Feb 06 2017 08:53

Jefffar wrote:My concern, if I read this right, is that it may allow a unit to win combat, destroy the opposing unit, then immediately charge another unit.

Please let me know if I am missing something in the way this rule works.


From what we can see that is exactly how it would work. That would make my kroot bubble-wrap far less effective unless I space them a lot further away from my high value units.

Looking at the formation bundles it appears that at least some of the best eldar units - jetbikes, wraithguard for example - will be available in the new faction. Shooting one unit of jet bikes only for another to get an out of sequence action will make them even trickier opponents than they already are.

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#9 » Feb 06 2017 12:15

Vector Strike wrote:Out-of-turn activations? Ugh. Interceptor already makes games longer - that one will make them even more...

Not if you wipe the unit out that you intercept. :P

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SinisterSamurai
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#10 » Feb 06 2017 01:27

But now wiping out that unit might proc another out-of-sequence event.

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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#11 » Feb 06 2017 02:18

SinisterSamurai wrote:But now wiping out that unit might proc another out-of-sequence event.


Yes. I think care will be needed to whittle units down to a minimum before you start finishing any units off. That really does look like one of the techniques we will need against the new faction.

Pinning tests look even better, that extra action will not do much on a unit that is pinned. If only jetbikes were not immune :sad:

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#12 » Feb 06 2017 05:30

Well better than that unit wiping your unit which could proc another out-of-sequence event. You basically only trade one of his shooting attacks with one of your shooting attacks with interceptor. ;)

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#13 » Feb 07 2017 05:00

For those unaware, Faeit has some leaked pictures from The Gathering Storm II.

Major takeaways:

Ynnari faction lose the previous army-wide special rules like Power from Pain and Battle Focus. Regardless of whether those units had those special rules previously, ALL Ynnari faction units get the new Strength from Death special rule (the one granting extra actions when units die nearby). This means, among other things, that all Wraith units, including Wraithknights, get a pure power boost from joining the Ynnari faction.

You can seem to take almost any unit from Craftworld Eldar (Everything but an Avatar of Khaine, I think), most units from Dark Eldar (no Haemounculus, Mandrakes, Wracks, Grotesques, Talos, Cronos, Urien, Drazhar), and apparently everything from the Harlequin.

Ynnari factions can choose from their original codex's Artefacts OR from the new Ynnari Artefacts - kinda like the Farsight Enclaves (except the Eldar are still limited to only one artefact of any kind per model).

The Yncarne has a few interesting tidbits. It regains a lost wound on 3+ whenever any Aeldari MODEL dies within 7", has your basic MC statline with 3+, 5 wounds, and initiative 10, and grants a 12" radius bubble of Fearless and FnP.

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#14 » Feb 08 2017 02:27

The Avatar is really sick and I bet it will be cheaper than a ML Daemon Prince (which would be the only thing I could compare it to even though the DP is weaker).
The other two aren't as scary as the Avatar and not as tanky as Cawl or Celestine but they don't have to...the Eldar Codex is already strong enough and the Ynnari bonus gives it a nice boost on top of it.

Now i'm not mad about Eldar getting buffed by a supplement since i think supplements should be viewn completely independently from the codex. A codex powerlevel can go up and down with each new release changing the whole value of a supplement....now it might be over the top for an already strong codex but once they get a new balanced codex (IF they do) it would be just right. Like the CSM supplements are pretty lackluster since the codex is meh but once the codex gets a nice buff the supplements will be really nice.

Note: stupid things like giving boni twice (like the BA red thirst thing) and other design brainfarts are still stupid no matter what of course. ;)

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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#15 » Feb 08 2017 04:27

Panzer wrote:The Avatar is really sick and I bet it will be cheaper than a ML Daemon Prince (which would be the only thing I could compare it to even though the DP is weaker).
The other two aren't as scary as the Avatar and not as tanky as Cawl or Celestine but they don't have to...the Eldar Codex is already strong enough and the Ynnari bonus gives it a nice boost on top of it.



The Yncarne will die to pulse fire just like the very similar Avatar of Khaine. It has some upgrades on the Avatar but is 80 points more than a model that was probably the least efficient in the whole codex. Costing almost as much as a Wraithknight is going to leave it requiring clever play or combos to make it worth it.

As a faction that wants to leverage out of sequence action and take strength from death I think there could be some useful synergy with Tau as allies. Interceptor and supporting fire make Tau masters of inflicting casualties in the opposing turn and I think Ynnari allies might be able to double down on that sort of thing. If the Yncarne appears as a result of interceptor fire it overcomes its biggest obstacle which is that it can never charge on the turn it arrives. Cheap drone units, maybe from a piranha fire stream, could power up a lot of Ynnari nonsense.

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#16 » Feb 08 2017 04:32

nic wrote:
Panzer wrote:The Avatar is really sick and I bet it will be cheaper than a ML Daemon Prince (which would be the only thing I could compare it to even though the DP is weaker).
The other two aren't as scary as the Avatar and not as tanky as Cawl or Celestine but they don't have to...the Eldar Codex is already strong enough and the Ynnari bonus gives it a nice boost on top of it.



The Yncarne will die to pulse fire just like the very similar Avatar of Khaine. It has some upgrades on the Avatar but is 80 points more than a model that was probably the least efficient in the whole codex. Costing almost as much as a Wraithknight is going to leave it requiring clever play or combos to make it worth it.

As a faction that wants to leverage out of sequence action and take strength from death I think there could be some useful synergy with Tau as allies. Interceptor and supporting fire make Tau masters of inflicting casualties in the opposing turn and I think Ynnari allies might be able to double down on that sort of thing. If the Yncarne appears as a result of interceptor fire it overcomes its biggest obstacle which is that it can never charge on the turn it arrives. Cheap drone units, maybe from a piranha fire stream, could power up a lot of Ynnari nonsense.

True, a Piranha Wing could be fun....but I don't think it would be stronger than just using Eldar stuff. Jetbikes to be specific.
Or D-flamer units in a Dark Eldar transport that deep strikes in the middle of the enemies without scatter, kills something, triggers the avatars ability to arrive at that point, triggers the soul burst ability, kills another unit with D-flamer.
Two units gone and a unit with D-flamer in a transport and the Avatar in the middle of your army....ouch! Interceptor can only help that much.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#17 » Feb 08 2017 05:25

Unusualsuspect wrote:(no Haemounculus, Mandrakes, Wracks, Grotesques, Talos, Cronos, Urien, Drazhar)

Well, at least we won't be seeing Grotesqueries and Dark Artisans double-charging...

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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#18 » Feb 11 2017 02:48

Panzer wrote:Or D-flamer units in a Dark Eldar transport that deep strikes in the middle of the enemies without scatter, kills something, triggers the avatars ability to arrive at that point, triggers the soul burst ability, kills another unit with D-flamer.
Two units gone and a unit with D-flamer in a transport and the Avatar in the middle of your army....ouch! Interceptor can only help that much.


I think the unit has to disembark if it wants to benefit from a Soulburst action. While in the transport it is nowhere on the table when it comes to measuring that 7" for Strength from Death so does not benefit. The rule does not give permission to be used while embarked so it cannot - the FAQ seem pretty consistent on this ruling.

Not that it is a lot of comfort for anyone on the receiving end of this attack but at least you get to use Interceptor on the thing that is about to kill you. In practice I believe an Archon with WWP makes more sense than the transport option and so is more likely to be seen.

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