Ynnari rules discussion

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#11 » Feb 06 2017 02:18

SinisterSamurai wrote:But now wiping out that unit might proc another out-of-sequence event.


Yes. I think care will be needed to whittle units down to a minimum before you start finishing any units off. That really does look like one of the techniques we will need against the new faction.

Pinning tests look even better, that extra action will not do much on a unit that is pinned. If only jetbikes were not immune :sad:

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#12 » Feb 06 2017 05:30

Well better than that unit wiping your unit which could proc another out-of-sequence event. You basically only trade one of his shooting attacks with one of your shooting attacks with interceptor. ;)

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#13 » Feb 07 2017 05:00

For those unaware, Faeit has some leaked pictures from The Gathering Storm II.

Major takeaways:

Ynnari faction lose the previous army-wide special rules like Power from Pain and Battle Focus. Regardless of whether those units had those special rules previously, ALL Ynnari faction units get the new Strength from Death special rule (the one granting extra actions when units die nearby). This means, among other things, that all Wraith units, including Wraithknights, get a pure power boost from joining the Ynnari faction.

You can seem to take almost any unit from Craftworld Eldar (Everything but an Avatar of Khaine, I think), most units from Dark Eldar (no Haemounculus, Mandrakes, Wracks, Grotesques, Talos, Cronos, Urien, Drazhar), and apparently everything from the Harlequin.

Ynnari factions can choose from their original codex's Artefacts OR from the new Ynnari Artefacts - kinda like the Farsight Enclaves (except the Eldar are still limited to only one artefact of any kind per model).

The Yncarne has a few interesting tidbits. It regains a lost wound on 3+ whenever any Aeldari MODEL dies within 7", has your basic MC statline with 3+, 5 wounds, and initiative 10, and grants a 12" radius bubble of Fearless and FnP.

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#14 » Feb 08 2017 02:27

The Avatar is really sick and I bet it will be cheaper than a ML Daemon Prince (which would be the only thing I could compare it to even though the DP is weaker).
The other two aren't as scary as the Avatar and not as tanky as Cawl or Celestine but they don't have to...the Eldar Codex is already strong enough and the Ynnari bonus gives it a nice boost on top of it.

Now i'm not mad about Eldar getting buffed by a supplement since i think supplements should be viewn completely independently from the codex. A codex powerlevel can go up and down with each new release changing the whole value of a supplement....now it might be over the top for an already strong codex but once they get a new balanced codex (IF they do) it would be just right. Like the CSM supplements are pretty lackluster since the codex is meh but once the codex gets a nice buff the supplements will be really nice.

Note: stupid things like giving boni twice (like the BA red thirst thing) and other design brainfarts are still stupid no matter what of course. ;)

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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#15 » Feb 08 2017 04:27

Panzer wrote:The Avatar is really sick and I bet it will be cheaper than a ML Daemon Prince (which would be the only thing I could compare it to even though the DP is weaker).
The other two aren't as scary as the Avatar and not as tanky as Cawl or Celestine but they don't have to...the Eldar Codex is already strong enough and the Ynnari bonus gives it a nice boost on top of it.



The Yncarne will die to pulse fire just like the very similar Avatar of Khaine. It has some upgrades on the Avatar but is 80 points more than a model that was probably the least efficient in the whole codex. Costing almost as much as a Wraithknight is going to leave it requiring clever play or combos to make it worth it.

As a faction that wants to leverage out of sequence action and take strength from death I think there could be some useful synergy with Tau as allies. Interceptor and supporting fire make Tau masters of inflicting casualties in the opposing turn and I think Ynnari allies might be able to double down on that sort of thing. If the Yncarne appears as a result of interceptor fire it overcomes its biggest obstacle which is that it can never charge on the turn it arrives. Cheap drone units, maybe from a piranha fire stream, could power up a lot of Ynnari nonsense.

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#16 » Feb 08 2017 04:32

nic wrote:
Panzer wrote:The Avatar is really sick and I bet it will be cheaper than a ML Daemon Prince (which would be the only thing I could compare it to even though the DP is weaker).
The other two aren't as scary as the Avatar and not as tanky as Cawl or Celestine but they don't have to...the Eldar Codex is already strong enough and the Ynnari bonus gives it a nice boost on top of it.



The Yncarne will die to pulse fire just like the very similar Avatar of Khaine. It has some upgrades on the Avatar but is 80 points more than a model that was probably the least efficient in the whole codex. Costing almost as much as a Wraithknight is going to leave it requiring clever play or combos to make it worth it.

As a faction that wants to leverage out of sequence action and take strength from death I think there could be some useful synergy with Tau as allies. Interceptor and supporting fire make Tau masters of inflicting casualties in the opposing turn and I think Ynnari allies might be able to double down on that sort of thing. If the Yncarne appears as a result of interceptor fire it overcomes its biggest obstacle which is that it can never charge on the turn it arrives. Cheap drone units, maybe from a piranha fire stream, could power up a lot of Ynnari nonsense.

True, a Piranha Wing could be fun....but I don't think it would be stronger than just using Eldar stuff. Jetbikes to be specific.
Or D-flamer units in a Dark Eldar transport that deep strikes in the middle of the enemies without scatter, kills something, triggers the avatars ability to arrive at that point, triggers the soul burst ability, kills another unit with D-flamer.
Two units gone and a unit with D-flamer in a transport and the Avatar in the middle of your army....ouch! Interceptor can only help that much.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#17 » Feb 08 2017 05:25

Unusualsuspect wrote:(no Haemounculus, Mandrakes, Wracks, Grotesques, Talos, Cronos, Urien, Drazhar)

Well, at least we won't be seeing Grotesqueries and Dark Artisans double-charging...

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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#18 » Feb 11 2017 02:48

Panzer wrote:Or D-flamer units in a Dark Eldar transport that deep strikes in the middle of the enemies without scatter, kills something, triggers the avatars ability to arrive at that point, triggers the soul burst ability, kills another unit with D-flamer.
Two units gone and a unit with D-flamer in a transport and the Avatar in the middle of your army....ouch! Interceptor can only help that much.


I think the unit has to disembark if it wants to benefit from a Soulburst action. While in the transport it is nowhere on the table when it comes to measuring that 7" for Strength from Death so does not benefit. The rule does not give permission to be used while embarked so it cannot - the FAQ seem pretty consistent on this ruling.

Not that it is a lot of comfort for anyone on the receiving end of this attack but at least you get to use Interceptor on the thing that is about to kill you. In practice I believe an Archon with WWP makes more sense than the transport option and so is more likely to be seen.

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Panzer
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#19 » Feb 12 2017 06:15

nic wrote:
Panzer wrote:Or D-flamer units in a Dark Eldar transport that deep strikes in the middle of the enemies without scatter, kills something, triggers the avatars ability to arrive at that point, triggers the soul burst ability, kills another unit with D-flamer.
Two units gone and a unit with D-flamer in a transport and the Avatar in the middle of your army....ouch! Interceptor can only help that much.


I think the unit has to disembark if it wants to benefit from a Soulburst action. While in the transport it is nowhere on the table when it comes to measuring that 7" for Strength from Death so does not benefit. The rule does not give permission to be used while embarked so it cannot - the FAQ seem pretty consistent on this ruling.

Not that it is a lot of comfort for anyone on the receiving end of this attack but at least you get to use Interceptor on the thing that is about to kill you. In practice I believe an Archon with WWP makes more sense than the transport option and so is more likely to be seen.

That's true.
I also never talked about them benefitting from the Soul Burst special rule. I talked about them triggering it which is of course possible. ;)

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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#20 » Feb 20 2017 02:17

These new rules give me the ability to bring both a Solitaire and some Dark Reapers fairly cheapish in an Allied Detachment. Solitaire gets the ability to regenerate for 15pts, and can be all over the place due to the bonus movement from Strength from Death. Cheapest tax seems to be Warlock Council 35p Court of the Archon 10p as HQ and Kabalite Warriors 40p as Troops.

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Raverrn
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#21 » Feb 21 2017 02:09

Positioning is going to be very key. Soulburst has a short range and units can only benefit from it once a turn, so it'll be possible to destroy units in an order that denies as many Soulbursts as possible.

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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#22 » Feb 22 2017 11:33

Does anyone think that blast weapons could be (part of) the answer? They'll do quite a bit of damage but shouldn't completely wipe it out.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#23 » Feb 22 2017 11:42

How about using coordinated firepower with target lock, wiping multiple units at once? :D

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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#24 » Feb 22 2017 03:21

Actually since soulburst is resolved immediately it would interrupt any further shooting from the coordinated firepower attack. Can't seem to stop it from happening if they have the positioning right.

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Lord Mayhem
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#25 » Feb 22 2017 04:05

That's actually debatable; the rule reads "whenever a unit is completely destroyed within 7" ...pick one of those units to make a soulburst action" The word immediately does not apply until the soulburst action is chosen. Therefore it would be reasonable to assume that the actions causing the unit to be destroyed be completed before the soulburst takes effect. Since all shooting from a combined firepower attack is considered one action (all targets declared at the same time) then the shooting should be completed before the soulburst occurs.

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nic
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Re: Ynnari rules discussion

Post#26 » Feb 23 2017 03:04

After discussion revealing some of what is likely to appear on a table very near me - it seems like Ynnari can pull off some leadership shenanigans rather well.

None of this is really new, DE/Harlequin buddies lists could already do all the basics. What may have shifted is how easy it is in terms of avoiding "tax" units and some little buffs to make it work better.

So the core of this build is the Mask of Secrets on a Harlequin Shadowseer and the Armour of Misery on a Dark Eldar Archon - who probably has the Webway Portal to deliver this to exactly where it needs to be. The Visarch is an optional addon - I will get back to him.

So what this does is give a 6" bubble of -4 Ld which can be exploited several ways. Bear in mind that being placed within 6" they will be perfectly positioned to Soulburst when they kill things.

First and possibly most devastating is the Mirror of Minds power the Shadowseer can get. If that Shadowseer can engineer a situation where the target is Ld5 or less then the target must Deny the Witch or will be killed so long at it can be killed by wounds. With the modifiers above anything Ld9 or below may as well not bother having wounds/saves/FNP because faced with a "keep rolling until the model is removed" effect the model will be removed. The Ynnari can double the chances of getting this power if the Shadowseer is the warlord because they get re-rolls on the warlord trait and one of those grants the ability to simply choose psychic powers rather than rolling for them. Riptides and Stormsurges are going to be the primary victims of this power I think.

Psychic Shriek is the other psychic use that i think we would see a lot. Tau do not generally have the best Ld so taking a -4 before being hit with Shriek is nasty.

Another nasty one is the Death Jester. If s/he inflicts a wound the unit will be taking a morale check at a cumulative -6 or fall back in the direction of choice of the Ynnari player. Then if they charge that unit it has to try to regroup at -4 to Ld or it will simply be removed from play.

It is possible to go all the way here with a Coven Coterie for the "tax" cost of a couple of wrack/grotesque units. The Ynnari unique HQ characters can go here without losing their Strength from Death rule. Those HQ (and the tax units) have a further -1Ld effect in a 12" radius. At this point even Ld10 targets will just die to that Mirror of Minds power and one more wound per Psychic Shriek will really add up. The Visarch also has a rule that means any unit within 3" uses its lowest leadership rather than its highest, when Shrieking a drone controller commander with a swarm of marker drones this would mean taking 3 more wounds per Psychic Shriek.

As countermeasures I can only think that the Talisman has some value - every Shriek denied might save a lot of models. Beyond that I think I will need to maintain my usual extreme levels of Interceptor fire, the Ynnari will probably want to use perfect deep strike to position the rather small 6" super-lethal range of this.

So bring on the scary clowns.

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