Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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QimRas
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#109 » Jul 18 2017 12:57

Panzer wrote:Salamander CT is strong indeed, but very lame compared to Raven Guard, Ultramarine and White Scars...but then again so are the others. Guess there is only so much one can do with Chapter Tactics to change how an army plays.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. This means that EVERY unit (infantry, dread, or bike of course) gets one free command reroll per shooting and fight phase. This stacks with the normal command reroll, because you can reroll different die. This makes all those units consistently deadly. In addition, if they have any abilities that give them any other form of reroll on hits or wounds, they can use the CT on the other.

In addition, because of the way the CT works, it almost guarantees MSU, meaning more spread out in the force org charts, meaning more varied units especially in limited Detachment scenarios. That is going to seriously change the structure of the army.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#110 » Jul 18 2017 01:07

QimRas wrote:
Panzer wrote:Salamander CT is strong indeed, but very lame compared to Raven Guard, Ultramarine and White Scars...but then again so are the others. Guess there is only so much one can do with Chapter Tactics to change how an army plays.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. This means that EVERY unit (infantry, dread, or bike of course) gets one free command reroll per shooting and fight phase. This stacks with the normal command reroll, because you can reroll different die. This makes all those units consistently deadly. In addition, if they have any abilities that give them any other form of reroll on hits or wounds, they can use the CT on the other.

In addition, because of the way the CT works, it almost guarantees MSU, meaning more spread out in the force org charts, meaning more varied units especially in limited Detachment scenarios. That is going to seriously change the structure of the army.


You're actually underestimating how many free command rerolls per shooting and fight phase they get.

After all, they get to reroll one missed to-hit AND reroll one missed to-wound.

So up to 2 CP for free for every single infantry, dread, or bike you bring to the table.

As I said, "Salamander CT is extremely potent for MSU squads, and particularly for Dreadnoughts and Veteran Dreadnoughts."

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QimRas
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#111 » Jul 18 2017 01:32

Unusualsuspect wrote:
QimRas wrote:
Panzer wrote:Salamander CT is strong indeed, but very lame compared to Raven Guard, Ultramarine and White Scars...but then again so are the others. Guess there is only so much one can do with Chapter Tactics to change how an army plays.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. This means that EVERY unit (infantry, dread, or bike of course) gets one free command reroll per shooting and fight phase. This stacks with the normal command reroll, because you can reroll different die. This makes all those units consistently deadly. In addition, if they have any abilities that give them any other form of reroll on hits or wounds, they can use the CT on the other.

In addition, because of the way the CT works, it almost guarantees MSU, meaning more spread out in the force org charts, meaning more varied units especially in limited Detachment scenarios. That is going to seriously change the structure of the army.


You're actually underestimating how many free command rerolls per shooting and fight phase they get.

After all, they get to reroll one missed to-hit AND reroll one missed to-wound.

So up to 2 CP for free for every single infantry, dread, or bike you bring to the table.

As I said, "Salamander CT is extremely potent for MSU squads, and particularly for Dreadnoughts and Veteran Dreadnoughts."


Oh, wow, you are completely correct there. I wonder what their Stratagem is going to be. With that much MSU and no need for the most common rerolls, they are going to have a lot of CP to throw around.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#112 » Jul 18 2017 01:45

QimRas wrote:
Unusualsuspect wrote:
QimRas wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. This means that EVERY unit (infantry, dread, or bike of course) gets one free command reroll per shooting and fight phase. This stacks with the normal command reroll, because you can reroll different die. This makes all those units consistently deadly. In addition, if they have any abilities that give them any other form of reroll on hits or wounds, they can use the CT on the other.

In addition, because of the way the CT works, it almost guarantees MSU, meaning more spread out in the force org charts, meaning more varied units especially in limited Detachment scenarios. That is going to seriously change the structure of the army.


You're actually underestimating how many free command rerolls per shooting and fight phase they get.

After all, they get to reroll one missed to-hit AND reroll one missed to-wound.

So up to 2 CP for free for every single infantry, dread, or bike you bring to the table.

As I said, "Salamander CT is extremely potent for MSU squads, and particularly for Dreadnoughts and Veteran Dreadnoughts."


Oh, wow, you are completely correct there. I wonder what their Stratagem is going to be. With that much MSU and no need for the most common rerolls, they are going to have a lot of CP to throw around.


As a Salamanders Army I'm guessing the meltas they are going to throw around will likely reroll the damage with CP's since they don't need to reroll anything else in the shooting phase. Talk about scary.

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QimRas
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#113 » Jul 18 2017 02:21

Yojimbob wrote:As a Salamanders Army I'm guessing the meltas they are going to throw around will likely reroll the damage with CP's since they don't need to reroll anything else in the shooting phase. Talk about scary.


They already get to reroll damage inside Melta range as part of the normal Melta rule.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#114 » Jul 18 2017 02:30

QimRas wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:As a Salamanders Army I'm guessing the meltas they are going to throw around will likely reroll the damage with CP's since they don't need to reroll anything else in the shooting phase. Talk about scary.


They already get to reroll damage inside Melta range as part of the normal Melta rule.


Incorrect, they get to roll two dice and choose the highest result. A CP could be used to reroll one or both dice for a melta weapon in half range.

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Panzer
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#115 » Jul 18 2017 02:47

I don't understand why people keep telling me that the Salamander Chapter tactic is actually quite strong when I even say it is strong. I mean you guys even quote me....do you kinda forget what I wrote halfway through my post? :D

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Vector Strike
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#116 » Jul 18 2017 02:59

I invite them to go MSU route. This means I'll be Player 1 :P

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Panzer
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#117 » Jul 18 2017 03:01

If they go MSU without any big&tasty target being player 1 doesn't mean THAT much anymore though. Especially not if they have many reserves anyway.
Which is something I'd do as Black Templar at least since deep striking Terminators and Vanguard Veterans to declare a charge with re-rolling the charge distance sounds pretty doable even without kowing their chapter specific stratagem. :P

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QimRas
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#118 » Jul 18 2017 03:36

Panzer wrote:I don't understand why people keep telling me that the Salamander Chapter tactic is actually quite strong when I even say it is strong. I mean you guys even quote me....do you kinda forget what I wrote halfway through my post? :D


Actually, I was disagreeing with the statement that the Salamander Chapter Tactic wouldn't change playstyle that much. I think they will end up with lots of CP to spare, making them very likely to use a lot of stratagems, and with a much heavier emphasis on MSU than most other Space Marines.

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Panzer
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#119 » Jul 18 2017 03:38

MSU never left. It's still a thing for any army that's not a horde army. So nothing changes there actually. And having more CP doesn't really change how an army plays either, it just makes it a bit more reliable (with the stratagems we know so far).

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#120 » Jul 18 2017 04:35

QimRas wrote:
Panzer wrote:I don't understand why people keep telling me that the Salamander Chapter tactic is actually quite strong when I even say it is strong. I mean you guys even quote me....do you kinda forget what I wrote halfway through my post? :D


Actually, I was disagreeing with the statement that the Salamander Chapter Tactic wouldn't change playstyle that much. I think they will end up with lots of CP to spare, making them very likely to use a lot of stratagems, and with a much heavier emphasis on MSU than most other Space Marines.


I just misinterpreted the intention of the use of the word "lame"!

You meant it, I take it, as being fairly bland and without interesting/flavorful mechanics, not lame as in "an old hobbled horse with a lame leg"?

My utmost apologies, because I feel the same way and that's a common sentiment among Salamander players that I've been chatting with!



Re: MSU

MSU is but one path a Sally can choose, and not even necessarily the best.

Dreadspam benefits just as much (it's nearly Guilliman levels of boost when you aim at an efficient target), and such a list could have a limited number of drops (even with a few MSU squads thrown in for good measure).

Large groups also still benefit, they just benefit less!

Ricordis
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#121 » Jul 18 2017 08:52

Where does it say chapter tactics affect infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts?

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Arka0415
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#122 » Jul 18 2017 10:27

Ricordis wrote:Where does it say chapter tactics affect infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts?


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

In game, the Ultramarines are one of the most tactically rewarding chapters, combining a huge range of Special Characters with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.

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Panzer
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#123 » Jul 19 2017 12:30

All those Chapter tactics make me wonder what Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels will get. I mean since they get their own Codex it's not unlikely for them to get several different "Chapter tactics" as well. :P

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Arka0415
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#124 » Jul 19 2017 01:54

Panzer wrote:All those Chapter tactics make me wonder what Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels will get. I mean since they get their own Codex it's not unlikely for them to get several different "Chapter tactics" as well. :P


This is a good question! There is certainly far less variation to be found in the Blood Angels or Space Wolves books as compared to the Space Marines book. What would they do? 1st Company, 2nd Company, etc? Or Flesh Tearers and other successor chapters?

My guess is that there will be three "tiers" of sub-faction perks:

Tier 1: High degree of variation (Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Inquisition, Chaos)
Tier 2: Some minor variation (Tau, Dark Eldar, Orks, Adeptus Mechanicus)
Tier 3: Essentially no variation (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Genestealer Cults, Necrons, Tyranids)

I bet the Tier 1 armies will have loads of strong perks designed to separate a large number of sub-factions. Tier 2 armies would have sub-factions, but they lack fully-realized identity (compared to Tier 1) so their perks won't be very strong. Finally, Tier 3 armies will be absolute wild cards. Blood Angels and Space Wolves will probably get a perk each. But will GW make up stuff to have "highly variable" Necron and Tyranid armies? It remains to be seen.

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Panzer
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#125 » Jul 19 2017 02:08

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:All those Chapter tactics make me wonder what Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels will get. I mean since they get their own Codex it's not unlikely for them to get several different "Chapter tactics" as well. :P


This is a good question! There is certainly far less variation to be found in the Blood Angels or Space Wolves books as compared to the Space Marines book. What would they do? 1st Company, 2nd Company, etc? Or Flesh Tearers and other successor chapters?

My guess is that there will be three "tiers" of sub-faction perks:

Tier 1: High degree of variation (Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Inquisition, Chaos)
Tier 2: Some minor variation (Tau, Dark Eldar, Orks, Adeptus Mechanicus)
Tier 3: Essentially no variation (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Genestealer Cults, Necrons, Tyranids)

I bet the Tier 1 armies will have loads of strong perks designed to separate a large number of sub-factions. Tier 2 armies would have sub-factions, but they lack fully-realized identity (compared to Tier 1) so their perks won't be very strong. Finally, Tier 3 armies will be absolute wild cards. Blood Angels and Space Wolves will probably get a perk each. But will GW make up stuff to have "highly variable" Necron and Tyranid armies? It remains to be seen.

There is enough variation for Blood Angels. They have plenty of successor chapters.
Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Vermillion, Angels Sanguine, Angels Encarmine and Knights of Blood who are noteable different to the rest come to my mind.
Although to be fair Knights of Blood are unlikely to get anything special since they are declared renegade already (even though they are still loyal).
Then again the future of everything Blood Angels is very open now that they unexpectedly survived the Tyranid invasion with heavy losses.

Space Wolves have lots of variation among their companys as well as seen with the company specific detachments they got in 7th.

I honestly don't know enough about Dark Angels to say anything about them though.

Genestealer Cults, Necrons and Tyranids can have as many variations as any Space Marine or Imperial Guard.
- Genestealer Cults have "home planets" on top of "parent fleets" just as Imperial Guard and Tyranids have.
- Necrons have their own different Tombworlds. They aren't the mindless mass of terminators they used to be back then.
- Tyranid Hivefleets actually have tons of variation and have no communication among eachother. They differ to such a degree that if they meet eachother at some place they begin to fight eachother so the stronger Hivefleet can consume the weaker one and get all the benefits the other Hivefleet developed on its way through the galaxy.

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Arka0415
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Re: Ultramarines Chapter Tactics spotted!

Post#126 » Jul 19 2017 02:30

Panzer wrote:There is enough variation for Blood Angels. They have plenty of successor chapters.
Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Vermillion, Angels Sanguine, Angels Encarmine and Knights of Blood who are noteable different to the rest come to my mind.
Although to be fair Knights of Blood are unlikely to get anything special since they are declared renegade already (even though they are still loyal).
Then again the future of everything Blood Angels is very open now that they unexpectedly survived the Tyranid invasion with heavy losses.

Space Wolves have lots of variation among their companys as well as seen with the company specific detachments they got in 7th.

I honestly don't know enough about Dark Angels to say anything about them though.

Genestealer Cults, Necrons and Tyranids can have as many variations as any Space Marine or Imperial Guard.
- Genestealer Cults have "home planets" on top of "parent fleets" just as Imperial Guard and Tyranids have.
- Necrons have their own different Tombworlds. They aren't the mindless mass of terminators they used to be back then.
- Tyranid Hivefleets actually have tons of variation and have no communication among eachother. They differ to such a degree that if they meet eachother at some place they begin to fight eachother so the stronger Hivefleet can consume the weaker one and get all the benefits the other Hivefleet developed on its way through the galaxy.


This is certainly true! However, there's no sub-faction in the game that can compare with the richness and depth of the First Founding chapters. I'm speaking a bit hyperbolically, but there's a whole other game, 30k, just based around them, not to mention thousands of pages worth of books and even a movie! Necron lore, for example, just pales in comparison. To make unique Tomb Worlds, they're basically going to have to make it up. Which is why they really could be a wild card. Who knows, one Tomb World might be 'super loyal' and get a worthless +1 leadership, while another could have some unbelievably-broken buff to Reanimation Protocols. We just don't know at this point, it seems.

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