Two Chaos Factions.

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Two Chaos Factions.

Post#1 » Aug 14 2017 12:04

In my current club, there are 2 chaos players. Noise Marines (Or at least Slaaneshi) and Night Lords. Last week I did a tag team battle against them with an IG ally. We lost. The only real highlight on our side was when Farsight killed a warlord in melee.

I need ideas on how to combat Chaos with Tau forces.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 376

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#2 » Aug 14 2017 12:09

What did you take? How many points was it? What was the table setup? What was the game play type? What did your opponent take? Did they keep you from moving forward with big scary units or did they just not die?

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#3 » Aug 14 2017 12:23

it was 2000 points total. So everyone took 1000 points. From what I remember they had full squads each of Cultists, 2 Assaults, 2 Tactical Chaos Marines, A Chaos Lord each and Chaos Sp- Almost said it.

I took a stealth suit team of 3, with a homing beacon for Farsight and a squad of 5 crisis suits (2 flamers, 3 Burst Cannons, 3 Plasma Rifles and 2 fusion blasters) with 2 drones each. 2 Squads of breachers, a Squad of Fire Warriors with a Cadre Fireblade. And a squad of Pathfinders.

I don't remember what my ally took too well. He had 2 squads of Rough Riders, some sort of flier and artillery. Oh and a couple squads of Guardsmen.

We were playing the 2nd week Konor Mission.

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#4 » Aug 14 2017 12:32

Because it was effectively a "No Mercy" type mission, the big problem was that we had a hard time wiping out their squads completely. As such they drew first blood and killed off our squads bit by bit.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 376

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#5 » Aug 14 2017 01:33

So you had easily half your army in 6 models. Farsight is meh and using a beacon for his meh close combat is a poor choice. Your weapon loadout on your crisis suits is far too varied to be worth using. In my opinion if you're not taking at least 1 commander, you're doing it wrong. I would bare minimum have a single quad fusion commander if you want to plan on being able to do anything.

Never take breachers without a fish to get them there. Two squads without one just means you'll never see your points paid back from either squad.

Only the pathfinders and strike team can benefit from fireblade and as such I'm sure you didn't have your pathfinders shooting carbines so really only the strike team could barely benefit from his buff. Either take firebalde with a bunch of strike teams or drones or not at all.

I personally wouldn't take XV8's in a 1000 point list especially not 5. I'd rather see weight of fire from strike teams and drones with a few commanders rounding out special weapons with pathfinders.

Obviously to each their own but if you don't have several ways to take out big armor or monsters against anyone at any list size, you're just asking to be punished. Fortunately we can take 2 commanders for 320 points who carry 8 meltas and then we can fill out our list with a bucket of guys, be it stealth suits, breachers with fish, strike teams with fireblade, or pathfinders and EVERYONE takes drones with them. Ignore KP as it basically means nothing except first blood and I find it rarely happens that whoever goes first doesn't get FB one way or another anyway so making your list so you "can't" get FB by weighing your list down with other big squads is more often a hinderance. I promise, taking gun drones in every squad changes how your opponent must play against you far more to your benefit than your bane.

If you keep using breachers against an assault heavy army like chaos can be, keep them hanging around the meat of your army ready for a counter strike. If you have them in a fish I like keeping them just off to the sideready to advance down the side and plank or come crashing back towards the center where I keep a healthy amount of guys and pathfinders for the counter. I like to keep the middle of my army squishy and mobile with strike teams and drones with a fireblade but with enough threat that people want to come and "kill all my guys". Unless they are berzerkers, I'm not really afraid of losing 5 or 6 guys in combat, retreating and then blasting them with everyone else. I drop commanders in where they are needed but again, not down the middle to get mulched. It really depends on the game but basically don't put your guys where EVERYONE can shoot or reach them in close combat. If you're having trouble with any flavor of marines I suggest ion guns of all types, some plasma, and fusion and rail on multiwound targets. Every game is different but sheer weight of fire from drones is always a must have if you want to have a "competitive list".

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#6 » Aug 14 2017 01:56

While I appreciate your advice, and I will admit to several of the mistakes (Not taking a Devilfish, using the Cadre ineffectively and varying my Crisis suit's loadout too much) I want to counter the following:

1.Farsight is most certainly not "Meh" in melee if you're using him correctly. A homing beacon is used to bring him up close and personal and with an entourage of battlesuits he can wreck. 2+ with rerolls is nothing to sneeze at, and the ability to declare Mont'Ka twice has saved my hide in the past. Yeah he's only strength 5, but most characters aren't tough enough to get more than a 4+ to wound, and the ones that are generally require exorbitant amounts of sheer firepower anyways.

2. Spreading your drones out like that is a TERRIBLE idea in a No Mercy style game. Not only are they left with a 5+ to hit against enemies in power armor, which means they won't be able to make up their points against anything except MAYBE the cultists, but it's really easy to have their squads wiped out this way, which grants the enemy a boatload of easy victory points. Since they can only target the nearest things at an 18" range (24 with a PAD but y'know) You're going to have to move them pretty close to their targets, which makes them very easy targets. By deepstriking them with your Crisis suits you not only get a chance to put them within range of what they should be firing at, but you're grouping lots of them together in one squad, making it MUCH more difficult to wipe out the squads and denying your enemy victory points. Plus the drone controller actually means they've got a good chance at killing things. Believe me, I've learned this the hard way.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 376

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#7 » Aug 14 2017 02:13

Farsight is still 151 points worth of meh. You're investing another 115 points worth of stealth teams to make him maybe touch one or two guys in their naughty spot. I'd much rather spend that 266 points doing something else and in most cases, literally anything other than that especially when you're talking in a 1k game that this one time gimmick is costing you over 25% of your army in 4 models. He's definitely meh when you consider the usefulness of other commanders for roughly the same points cost. Ask any competitive player who they fear more; Farsight or Commander Joe'shmoe with 4 meltas. I bet they pick 4 meltas every time.

About the drones. I never make a list AFTER I know my opponent and AFTER I know what the mission is so this is just my two cents on a playstyle that leans more towards competitive tournament styles of play or maelstrom. And if KP does come into play we use ITC rules of PL which is a meager 1 PL for a pair of drones but if that's not the way you play then you obviously may see different effectiveness with how you build a list. Even with that said I would STILL take drones in pairs on every squad and force my opponent to shoot them or chase them or otherwise make them do something to get the "easy kill points" to force them into my lap with my play style.

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#8 » Aug 14 2017 03:29

No I wouldn't call him "Meh". I'd call him "Good" when you take advantage of his double Mont'Ka (especially with things like Hammerheads which can't take Targetlock) or way of the short blade. If all you do with him is deepstrike and chop then I suppose he's "Meh". He's easily made up his points in many battles, including the time he killed Gabriel Angelos in melee and shot down an Imperial Knight in the same turn. Joe'shmoe may be more threatening in a generic situation, and I intend to buy one to supplement his bomb (especially when GW gives us Fusion Blade stats) but I find the fact that he gets underestimated so often really helps things as they become more keen on ignoring him. But maybe I'm biased, he's my favorite character so I find ways to make him work. Plus you're ignoring the fact that homing beacons can be used to deep strike other things, such as my drone strategy.

I really wouldn't take them in pairs in a game centered around killing squads because, like I said, they make for easy kill points. It might work out fine if enemies had to divert all their shots to the same squad... but 8e rules make that less of a possibility. A much better solution would be to make use of my method of using drones (Crisis suits exist to deliver drones where they need to be and supplement their firepower) plus throw in a proper fully staffed tactical drone squad or two. They can still take hits if need be and are much harder to wipe out.

fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 194

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#9 » Aug 14 2017 04:10

I'm mostly surprised that the two chaos player's lists were so similar. Really the Emperor's Children player should have been a nightmare of Noise Marines blasting you with ignores cover weapons. Plus they can shoot twice.
The night lords should be appearing near your back lines and using leadership shenanigans to make morale tests super dangerous. Plus they can spend a command point and severely reduce your shooting effectiveness against 1 unit.
Sounds like your two opponent's aren't taking advantage of their army strengths. If they are relying on cultists and regular marines then basic tau firepower should suffice. Focus more on firewarrior and making them relevant. Maybe a smaller flamer based squad of suits to pop in with farsight. Make them specialized and you'll see more results.
Your stealth suits are a perfectly valid unit that you should be happy to take. Burst cannons should be fine against their kind of list.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#10 » Aug 14 2017 04:16

fraction64 wrote:I'm mostly surprised that the two chaos player's lists were so similar. Really the Emperor's Children player should have been a nightmare of Noise Marines blasting you with ignores cover weapons. Plus they can shoot twice.
The night lords should be appearing near your back lines and using leadership shenanigans to make morale tests super dangerous. Plus they can spend a command point and severely reduce your shooting effectiveness against 1 unit.
Sounds like your two opponent's aren't taking advantage of their army strengths. If they are relying on cultists and regular marines then basic tau firepower should suffice. Focus more on firewarrior and making them relevant. Maybe a smaller flamer based squad of suits to pop in with farsight. Make them specialized and you'll see more results.
Your stealth suits are a perfectly valid unit that you should be happy to take. Burst cannons should be fine against their kind of list.

EC Noise Marines aren't any more dangerous than other Legions Noise Marines. Actually Alpha Legion Noise Marines are better due the Ghostkeel effect.
All being EC does is make you hit first in melee and enable you to use the Stratagem that lets you hit again if you kill a model in melee. Oh right and give you access to a bad Reliq and a Warlord Trait that gives your HQ more attacks the more wounds he lost (up to 3).

But yeah, Night Lords should aim to get close to the opponent.

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#11 » Aug 14 2017 04:32

I forgot about the noise marines. But my ally was the one who dealt with them.

As for the Night Lords... they did pull off two deepstrikes with the assault squads. Farsight carved up the first one but the game ended before the second could be killed.

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#12 » Aug 14 2017 04:58

I would like to rectify my mistake: The NL player had the 2 assault squads plus his warlord deepstriking. While the EC player made use of his Noise Marines to take out my fire warriors. They fell to the rough riders but they still got them. The EC player had the cultists, and I think 1 squad of tactical marines. My memory's not perfect.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#13 » Aug 14 2017 09:32

CelticBarbarian wrote:it was 2000 points total. So everyone took 1000 points. From what I remember they had full squads each of Cultists, 2 Assaults, 2 Tactical Chaos Marines, A Chaos Lord each and Chaos Sp- Almost said it.

I took a stealth suit team of 3, with a homing beacon for Farsight and a squad of 5 crisis suits (2 flamers, 3 Burst Cannons, 3 Plasma Rifles and 2 fusion blasters) with 2 drones each. 2 Squads of breachers, a Squad of Fire Warriors with a Cadre Fireblade. And a squad of Pathfinders.

I don't remember what my ally took too well. He had 2 squads of Rough Riders, some sort of flier and artillery. Oh and a couple squads of Guardsmen.

We were playing the 2nd week Konor Mission.


I'm late to the party, but I'll throw in my two cents. In a world with Indexes fighting Codexes, we need to bring our best, most-polished lists. We're at an inherent disadvantage against Codex armies, and especially at low points costs we need to keep our lists sleek and streamlined.

The first thing I'd do is avoid Farsight in a 1000pt list. However if you're running him in a low-points game, you need to build the army around him.

Second, you need to give your XV8s a clear role. Instead of giving them a couple of each gun, define their battlefield role and outsource other roles to other units.

Third, never run Breachers without a Devilfish. At every range outside 5", ordinary Fire Warriors outperform Breachers especially seeing as Fire Warriors can be buffed by a Fireblade while Breachers cannot.

If you want to use Farsight in a 1000pt list, here's what I'd do.

-

HQ - Farsight (151)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters (160)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Flamers, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (251)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits (90)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits (90)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Rail Rifles (105)

Total: 1003 - Command Points: 4
(1 Vanguard Detachment)

-

I feel bad cutting the Fusion Commander's drones and the size of the Pathfinder squad, but I think the list works. Use Farsight's Mont'ka basically on turns 1 and 2 (if needed) and it's off to the races with a big ball of battlesuits!

Anyway, here's a more conventional variant too:

-

HQ - Farsight (151)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2 Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors (48)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors (48)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors (48)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Flamers, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (251)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 3x Rail Rifles (121)

Total: 999 - Command Points: 6
(1 Battalion Detachment)

-

What do you think?

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Two Chaos Factions.

Post#14 » Aug 15 2017 06:00

Solid lists, but I'd need to buy more crisis suits. Keep in mind I'm using what I have (2 of them were originally members of the 8) Though the second one seems to lack a means of getting Farsight where he needs to be.

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