Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#1 » Oct 30 2017 11:59

Hi ATT!!! Now, I have a upcoming match on the weekend, but this thread isn't about that tournament. There's a new player in my gaming group who just joined, and he's a Blood Angels player. Now, I've fought Deathwatch, Imperial Fists and some Chaos Space Marine Armies. However, I've never had a fight against Blood Angels, and I don't know that much about them (other than the fact that they are loyaltists, and they share the pain of their dead primarch). I would just play it out without your help...but I kinda accidentally bet one of my riptides if I lost. So, unless I'm willing to lose the best painted and modelled unit in my army in a bet, I need your help to prepare. Who knows? In the process, we may just make a valuable tactica article. I need answers before the match on Tuesday 7th November 1:30 AEST. After that, I think this article can be developed as a Blood Angels Tactica, and I'll request a name change and edit this opening paragraph.
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Arka0415
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#2 » Oct 31 2017 01:09

You seem to have very colorful experiences playing 40k!

Anyway, playing Blood Angels is like playing against regular codex Marines, except they're better in close combat and have fewer toys (they're still an index army). Expect powerful Dreadnoughts, ultra-elite assault units like Death Company and Sanguinary Guard. Many Blood Angels players also field competent air forces using Stormraven Gunships.

Honestly, your tactics will be pretty similar to fighting Space Marines, but you'll need to be extra-wary about assaults. Pay special attention during the deployment phase of the game, and make note of what units go in what vehicles, and what units go in deep strike reserve. Blood Angels units favor fast tactics, so expect mechanized infantry and teleporting forces.

So bubble-wrap your priority targets, skirmish with their infantry, and use your Fusion Commanders and whatnot to remove their main threats (usually transports). Don't get too close to their combat infantry, but... don't be afraid to get in close if you know you can remove a target.

Ricordis
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#3 » Oct 31 2017 01:14

My friend plays Blood Angels and currently he only uses two BA things:
Brother Corbulo and Librarian Dreadnought with their Blood Powers.

The first is able to heal or even revive dead models (and he loves to put him out of sight near Grav-Cannon Devastors) and gives nearby Marines +1 attack.
The latter is so cruel because he is able to smite, buff other Blood Angels for another +1 Attack or just boils enemys' blood. Means there is a very versatile Dreadnought with a pretty dangerous psi-phase. And it is a charactermodel so you can't target it directly.

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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#4 » Oct 31 2017 01:36

Arka0415 wrote:Anyway, playing Blood Angels is like playing against regular codex Marines, except they're better in close combat and have fewer toys (they're still an index army). Expect powerful Dreadnoughts, ultra-elite assault units like Death Company and Sanguinary Guard. Many Blood Angels players also field competent air forces using Stormraven Gunships.


Alright, a few things here. FIrst, will running crisis suits against Dreadnoughts be any help (using missile pod/dual fusion loadout)? Secondly, should I make use of my crumbly devilsfish units to pull back my heavy infantry list I'm running (apparently the new guy has a lot of infantry, and has a good amount of vehicle & 'nought support, but I talked to my friend who introduced him, and he says that this guy has a tendancy to use noughts pretty much in the place of infantry. He uses at least three squads of SM's in a few rhinos??? Not too sure, and I\this isn't going to be a matched play. I'll explain in a post beneath.)? Fourth...I have a problem with the last point there. My army is quite versatile, but I usually just screen Ack-Ack fire via broadside and velocity tracker at enemy aircraft. While that would be effective against a smaller airforce while costing a insane amount of points (don't ask: I did it once, and it's worked ever since. No idea how I got so lucky, but may have something to do with insane markerlighting), the new guy sent some photos to my friend who bought him into our group, and according to the photos he may be running at least 4 stormravens plus a allied Corvus Blackstar. My friend thinks he's also got some Valks, but he wasn't too sure. His army is of a unknown size, but my friend says he runs heavy air support, with at least three Air Wing Detatchments and a allied Deathwatch Unbound Detatchment for the Corvus. Anyway, I'm going to explain a few critical details about the bet in a post beneath. They're relevant to prep.
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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#5 » Oct 31 2017 01:55

OK. So a few details about the bet here. So first, I met this new guy, and he was EXTREMELY arrogant. Not a very nice guy. Anyway, he was boasting all over the place, saying that he could beat all of us, and being very unkind. My friend who introduced him was looking kinda embarrased, so I decided to intervene. I challenged him to a no-terrain battle on a double-length table. The objective would be total destruction of the other side. Of course, he refused, saying it was a pansy challenge. I got a bit...infuriated, so I decided to up the stakes. I told him that if I lost and he won, I'd give him my best painted model. It's a camoflauge riptide in jungle camo. Unfortuantely, I can't post a photo, becuase another friend of mine is keeping it at his place so I can't refuse to hand it over. It's really well done, and it's the only one of my riptides I bothered to magnetise (mainly becuase I was afraid of damaging the others, and because I hadn't painted this one yet).

So, he accepted, and he added a third condition. If I were to win, he'd never come back to 'This lousy pansy-pants group'. he'd already threatened to keep bothering us if we didn't play against him. I think my friend is a little bit reluctant to be this guy's friend, but I don't know what's going on between them. Anyway, this guy is a bit of a...bully I guess??? He's been told he's not wanted with that attitude, but he's vowed to keep coming back to our Geedubs location if he isn't part of the group. So, unless I want to go to some other place in Sydney (which there aren't many of to be honest), I'm going to have to fight this guy. Anyway, my riptide is forfiet if I bow out. So no turning back now. Anyway, that's the relavant situation.
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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#6 » Oct 31 2017 01:56

OK. So a few details about the bet here. So first, I met this new guy, and he was EXTREMELY arrogant. Not a very nice guy. Anyway, he was boasting all over the place, saying that he could beat all of us, and being very unkind. My friend who introduced him was looking kinda embarrased, so I decided to intervene. I challenged him to a no-terrain battle on a double-length table. The objective would be total destruction of the other side. Of course, he refused, saying it was a pansy challenge. I got a bit...infuriated, so I decided to up the stakes. I told him that if I lost and he won, I'd give him my best painted model. It's a camoflauge riptide in jungle camo. Unfortuantely, I can't post a photo, becuase another friend of mine is keeping it at his place so I can't refuse to hand it over. It's really well done, and it's the only one of my riptides I bothered to magnetise (mainly becuase I was afraid of damaging the others, and because I hadn't painted this one yet).

So, he accepted, and he added a third condition. If I were to win, he'd never come back to 'This lousy pansy-pants group'. he'd already threatened to keep bothering us if we didn't play against him. I think my friend is a little bit reluctant to be this guy's friend, but I don't know what's going on between them. Anyway, this guy is a bit of a...bully I guess??? He's been told he's not wanted with that attitude, but he's vowed to keep coming back to our Geedubs location if he isn't part of the group. So, unless I want to go to some other place in Sydney (which there aren't many of to be honest), I'm going to have to fight this guy. Anyway, my riptide is forfiet if I bow out. So no turning back now. Anyway, that's the relavant situation.
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Bloodknife92
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#7 » Oct 31 2017 02:55

This is one of the funniest posts I've read to date :P

First of all, I agree that a double length board with no terrain against one of the best ranged armies in the game would be an unfair game. Its like asking to play Raven Guard with all Raven Guard models sporting a -6 to hit for all shooting attacks made against them. You basically asked to play a game where you had a very unfair advantage, so I don't blame your opponent for declining, no matter how mean he may be.

Secondly, betting your best model isn't exactly the smartest thing to do, but I'm sure you didn't need me to tell you this :P

My third point, is that you don't need to play against him. You rose up to his level of cockiness, and you wanted to bring him down a level. That's your own doing, and no one else's. You don't need to beat him. You don't need to go somewhere else if you lose. Should you lose to him, the need to go somewhere else and not show your face there again is once again, your own problem, and no one else's. If your group is worth attending, then no one should shame you for losing, and seriously, if this guy is really as bad as you make him out to be, then he definitely doesn't belong at your group.

My fourth, and most important point, is that you do not have to give him your Riptide for bowing down. Just because you made a bet that you feel you must uphold means absolutely nothing. If you're really afraid of losing to someone of his.... Personality, then just tell him you don't actually want to lose your $90AUD model and play a game like normal. If you lose, nothing changes. If you win, literally nothing changes. The Earth keeps orbiting the Sun and our lousy politicians keep earning stupid amounts of money for doing nothing. You aren't required by law to adhere to a bet. That is in turn a result of your own arrogance(I mean this in the nicest, most truthful way possible) so if you can't put your ego down and just concede, then the problem is your own.

I know how you feel about this guy though. My local gaming club is made up solely of the guy you're talking about, which makes it hard to enjoy such an amazing game. You're not the problem, he is. Don't think otherwise.

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Arka0415
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#8 » Oct 31 2017 03:31

With this new information in mind, I agree with Bloodknife92.

Don't play this game. That guy's taking advantage of you. There's far more honor in just ignoring him than playing him because you're afraid to "back down."

Also, your "friend" who's holding your model should give it up. That's a petty thing to know and he should know better.

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leo1925
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#9 » Oct 31 2017 07:08

If what you are saying is true then you shouldn't play against him, especially when you have nothing to win (you can't force him to keep his end of the bargain) while you have to lose an expensive model with a lot of work put in.

If you do decide to play against him there are a few things to consider. Blood angels play pretty much like other space marines only more aggressively and with more deep strike (even tech marines blood angels can take jump packs). Blood Angels have a lot of named characters and most them are force multipliers (for example their chapter master gives an extra attack to units in 6 inches). Be aware that one of the psychic powers of the Blood Angels is especially troublesome, the name is shield of sanguinus and it gives a unit (including vehicles) in 12 (iirc) a 4+ invu and since you aren't playing matched play that means that he potentially activate it a lot.

I am now in my phone, I will try to write more later.

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n1md4
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#10 » Oct 31 2017 07:34

This isn't about how to beat any army, this is about a level of maturity.

I mean this in all due respect ... but if you're young, get your parents involved and get them to get your model back. If you're not, collect YOUR model from your friend's, and swallow some pride.

Don't play a game with such ridiculous stakes, really! This isn't a cash game, money has no soul, I assume you've put a great deal of time and effort in to your army, and that they mean something to you. No one should take that away from you - not even yourself in this crazy ordeal.

On the other hand, If you really don't care about your model, then play away, and next time you're throwing models away ...
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Draaen
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#11 » Oct 31 2017 09:23

I agree with a lot of the other posts. I strongly recommend you get your model refuse to play or play without the model on the line. I second the get your parents involved if you are younger. Something seems fishy. Ignore the guy and he will peter himself out. Seriously after a month of no reaction will the guy want to come out to the store? It is a bit of a treck for anyone and at some point the time investment will outweigh his potential benefits.

A couple things to consider. Is the game rigged? Did you juts blurt out you wanted to bet or did he say something to entice it. How will you be sure his points are accurate? Who is your impartial 3rd party judge to mediate rules disputes who would know both armies well enough? Pro-tip don't use your mutual friend. Is he saying yeah I play blood angels but it's just the broth for his soup? I know a guy who likes to run ashmantle in his blood angels list. Is the guy bringing forgeworld? Does the guy have a readout on what you normally bring from your friend or him seeing your army? How can you going in blind vs him having knowledge be fair?

When money is on the table vs a questionable opponent this all matters. Without it people work these things out amicably. Didn't realize monstrous creatures can't move up to a second story and it was part of your game plan? Npo money on the line I'd say Okay go for it. With money on the line no way.

Double table length isn't as big of an advantage as one might think. He will deploy deep strikers/infiltrators if he has any sense. You can never avoid the possibility of a first turn charge. Bubble wrap will still be key and EWO will probably be worth it. A lot of our premier guns are shorter range so even if you played lengthwise you would need to move up and start falling back to really be hitting with a lot of your guns. Crisis suits with missile pods would be best for that but have a 36" range. Meaning they can be shot back at by Lascannons. If you are able to maintain the gap he can deepstrike behind you as well.

Seriously though back out this guy isn't worth it and you have too many unknowns for this game to be played on the level.
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#12 » Oct 31 2017 12:48

If you're going ahead with the game (is that a big if?)

1: Like other people have suggested, make sure you have someone neutral on hand (or preferably biased towards you) to check points and solve disputes (of which there will probably be quite a few)
2: If he turns up with anything but a completely blood angels army, you can pull out of the game with no negatives.
3: Make your list as competitive as you can - we can help!
4: Mission? Terrain? Open, Narrative, Matched?

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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#13 » Oct 31 2017 09:20

Watcher on the wall wrote:Mission? Terrain? Open, Narrative, Matched?


The mission is simply to kill the enemy. No objectives to hold. The terrain??? He demanded a open table with no cover. I agreed, since I'm pretty good with that. Apparently, the guy in charge of the store on that day will be adjudicating, and has declared he's got a story. He actually emailed me the draft of the narrative premise. It's definitely not matched: He's got a bigger army than me. Anyway, the narrative premise is below...

The Battle of Baal Secondus
119.033.M42. Tau Vs Blood Angels.
The Tau have lost a riptide. Not any, but the latest prototype testbed for a Stealthtide battlesuit: A algamation of a Stealthsuit and a Riptide. A small Tau battlegroup has pushed it's way deep into Imperial territory through the Rowboatian Wormhole. On the moon of Baal Secondus, the Adeptus Mechanicus examine the captured riptide, to try and find weaknesses in the Tau machine. While the Tau ships engage the ponderous and brutal Imperium ships in orbit, a company of Tau troops descenend to the surface to engage the Blood Angels Chapter in combat. Outnumbered (but definitely not outgunned) the Tau will valiently fight for The Greater Good: Either they will fall and the Riptide will be captured, or they will win the day and retrieve the stolen battlesuit. All this rests on the actions of the opposing sides commanders...

After that bit, it mentions my real name (turned into a Tau title) and the name of my opponent. For the sake of privacy, I'm not going to post that section.
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Panzer
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#14 » Oct 31 2017 09:43

Urgh I won't mention how ridiculous your fight with that guy is (on both sides by the way) but the fact that you put yourself at such an disadvantage with such a weak army as T'au after boasting so much to a person who's not really worth the efford while betting your best model puts me physically and mentally in pain.
I literally facepalmed two or three times while reading this thread.

Back on topic:
Luckily for you Blood Angels aren't exactly strong currently either. The best things you can expect on his side are:
- Sanguinary Guard with Sanguinary Priest and Dante
- Jump Pack Vanguard Veterans with various viable loadouts (Stormbolter, Stormshields, any kind of special weapons or power weapons. Your call.)
- Scout spam for Troops
- Stromravens(!)
- Assault Cannon Razorbacks(!)
- Lascannon Predators(!)

If he has a 4k army of BA it's safe to say that he owns basically any of the above. Stormravens will rip you a new one on their own, you should definitely add 4 QF Commander in your list for the chance of facing two of them alone. Better more since he will have Razorbacks and/or Predators as well.

Sanguinary Guard are tough with their 2+ armor and get good buffs with Dante and a Sanguinary Priest, however they are manageable with mass shooting. Gun Drones, CIB or Plasma all work well against those.
Luckily Death Company and BA specific Dreadnoughts aren't that good anymore currently. Which doesn't mean they can't hurt though. It just means they aren't priority targets if he has any of the above on the field.

He probably will have a few units of Terminators as well since the BA formations in 7th edition included Terminators all the time. Good thing they aren't top tier units either. But at 3k if he doesn't spam the above units to no end you will probably see 2-4 Termi units with one of them possibly in a Landraider (one more reason for QF Commander).

With your posted list? A serious BA list will wipe you off the table. BA are bad but not that bad and T'au aren't exactly top tier either.


General advice for handling difficult opponents (except for ignoring them lol): check both your lists before the game to see whether they are legal. Offer him a copy of your list and try to get a copy of his list. Write his list down on your own if you have to so you can check during the game whether he talks *BAD WORD DELETED!* or not.
Also get a third neutral person that can handle things if unclear and that keeps track of things like Command Points. Ideally the shop owner because the opponent might whine and thrash but ultimately he just can't do anything about the shop owners decisions except for complaining about him in another gaming group (which will sure learn what kind of guy he is and judge his complaining accordingly).

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Arka0415
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#15 » Oct 31 2017 09:55

No offense, but this situation is completely absurd!

You let a kid get a rise out of you, got you to stake one of your models, then play a game that's so absurdly one-sided that you have no hope to win?

No matter what army he brings, it will be better.

His army has 670 points on your army, possibly more.

You have no anti-tank.

There is no terrain.

Either your opponent doesn't know his army, or is screwing with you, or is cheating.

Either he, or both of you, don't understand competitive 40k. Everything about this is wrong.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#16 » Oct 31 2017 10:02

Here I clicked together this BA list real quick and left about 500p open even:

+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [136 PL, 2534pts] +++

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) ++
Select Chapter: Blood Angels

+ HQ +
Captain: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Commander Dante

Sanguinary Priest: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack

+ Troops +
Scout Squad
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Scout Squad
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Scout Squad
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout: Boltgun
Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

+ Elites +
Company Veterans: Jump Pack
Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter
Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter

Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist
Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist

+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad: Armorium Cherub
Space Marine: Lascannon
Space Marine: Lascannon
Space Marine: Lascannon
Space Marine: Lascannon
Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun

Predator: Twin lascannon
Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

Predator: Twin lascannon
Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

+ Flyer +
Stormraven Gunship: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin assault cannon, Twin multi-melta
Two hurricane bolters: 2x Hurricane bolter

Stormraven Gunship: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin assault cannon, Twin multi-melta
Two hurricane bolters: 2x Hurricane bolter

+ Dedicated Transport +
Razorback: Twin assault cannon

Razorback: Twin assault cannon

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


This would already be plenty to defeat your list and I'm half asleep, not used to write BA lists for 8th edition and didn't even use all points available.

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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#17 » Oct 31 2017 10:14

OK then. I may not be the most competitive player with my lists. But I am a good player. I manage what I do have effectively. I make the best out of every situation. Although a lot of the game is down to chance, I can tell you five ways to bring down a Rhino transport using weak weapons (Actually closer to three, but only becuase the other two are technically variations on two of the others) and I can micromanage my army very well. I've hit a slump with list building, and I still haven't began to lose massively. What I can tell you is that facepalming isn't the right reaction Panzer, nor is my army that weak Arka. Every situation can be overcome using the right tactics. In fact, isn't that what this site is about?? I may be less of a vet than you guys, and my experience spans less than 2 years in length. But what I don't have in pure experience, I have in strategic ability. I've fought battles without terrain. They just make line of sight easier. Sure, he's going to get there faster, but the majority of the terrain rules were removed in 8e. No more Difficult Terrian or Hazards anymore. His air screen is my greatest threat. Fine, I'll take a sun shark or two. It'll allow me to take out his ground troops as well. For anti armour, maybe add in Longstrike plus two fusion commanders in a Supreme Command Detatchment. Maybe drop the Battalion Detachment and move one of the teams into another detachment and bolster it to a squad of 6-10. Drop one of the pathfinder teams and replace with a Drone Squad. Drop one of the crisis teams and replace with a Technical Drone squad, to keep the battlesuits operational. Drop some points by making the stealth teams have cheaper upgrades or none at all (bar the shas'vre). Add in a second sun shark for some additional air cover. If anyone sees some problems with what I Just stated, please. Feel free to chime in. I know I'm not sounding all that chipper right now, but I just discovered I sound reall, really nasal and I hadn't noticed. My friends didn't feel oblidged to tell me either. Really gives you a existential crisis when you discover that you didn't even know what your own voice sounded like to others. I can reccomend NOT recording your own voice and playing it back.
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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Fighting Blood Angels: Need Nelp with Tactics

Post#18 » Oct 31 2017 10:20

Vio'ra Mal'caor wrote: What I can tell you is that facepalming isn't the right reaction Panzer, nor is my army that weak Arka. Every situation can be overcome using the right tactics.

Oh sweet summer child.
Facepalming is definitely the right reaction to what you and that guy are doing. But as said I'm not here to judge. I offered you my help. Also Arka is right, your list is weak and if you think you can overcome bad lists with tactic then you have WAY more faith in 40k as tactical tabletop than is probably good for you.

Edit: also please try to hit enter a few times when typing such a long text. Makes it easier to read you know.

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