Seraphon for Mercs?

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
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Nagito Komaeda
Shas'Saal
Posts: 15

Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#1 » Nov 13 2017 08:46

Disclaimer:I think this is the correct location to put this post, as it's talking about allying with aliens as well, but if applicable, please correct me!

So me and my cousin are both looking for T'au; I already bought the Start Collecting!, he's going to. We've been discussing about possible T'au Mercenaries, because Kroot & Vespid are somewhat lacking. I've landed on the concept of having the Seraphon from Age of Sigmar as a possible mercenary. They fit in well enough, in that they're primitive-esque creatures, with mostly close combat capabilities and many units that can receive T'au Armour.
We've already decided that we're only going to do such a thing after the T'au Codex drops, so we can balance them out well enough. However, I'd like to know a few things, such as if anybody has already done it before, what you all think of the concept and possible rules you'd suggest for us.

For clarification, they'd fill the Melee role in the T'au composition, but possibly apply some form of ranged elemental weaponry (such as the Salamander using a fire-breathing like attack.) While somewhat tanky, I'd say they haven't adapted well enough yet and are kind of sluggish in comparison to the current-day races.

Thank you for reading and I kindly await your responses!

With honour,
Nagito Komaeda.
Remember, it's all for the sake of Ultimate Hope!

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Beerson
Shas'Saal
Posts: 72

Re: Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#2 » Nov 13 2017 10:59

well, people generaly dislike homebrewed rules and or kodexes, so you should first check with your group if they will be cool with it, and preferably they should be the ones you will discuss the rules with the most, they might not find it balanced or fun, especially as you are basicly bringing something to T'au army that has no place there (close combat)

honestly, I can't imagine bringing some new model to my very friendly group and say this is new unit, it has these rules...

also there is a possibility (solid rumors) that we get either new auxiliaries, or at least new models/stuff for old ones, so there might be something that would partially fit your idea

tl:dr
check with your group if they are fine with it
wait for upcoming auxiliaries before making your own

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joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 50

Re: Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#3 » Nov 13 2017 12:21

Well, I agree with Beerson that introducing Homebrew is difficult. It might be accepted in a narative campain where one person acts more like a RPG-like Game-Master than a player, but otherwise other player (and yourself) will always wonder if those are fair (or too weak).

BUT:

Luckily, people like us ( = people who like converting and messing around with units) can be verry happy with the current edition:

1. The most simple Game-Type offered in the Rulebook even offers to play with "all miniatures you own" (not a direct quote, since my rulebook is not the english one).

2. The indices have a pretty nice wording in most cases: "A ... is a model armed with ..." (direct quote this time). Now THAT is nice :D . Using a Warhammer-Fantasy-model as, let's say, a Tyranid Lictor is allowed even RAW. (...and other players will in most cases be ok with it anyway, as long as you use your models to enhance flair and not just as a placeholder to get powerful units you do not "own".)

3. Many opponents will want to play Battleforged Armies. Combining different Factions to one Army is not allowed in a Balanced Game (though it is in a Free Game) (I hope I get the English translations right...).
But in a friendly environment nobody will object if you play one Detachment of Tau and one Detatchment of Seraphon that use the Tyranid/Ork/Something-Rules.
Most important is, of course, to choose the rules/unit that seem best to describe the model, not the most powerful.


...Though: If your goal (and source of fun) is not in playing/modeling/narating cool auxiliaries, but in creating new rules... well, in that case you can forget all I wrote. In that case: enjoy writing those rules :-)

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joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 50

Re: Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#4 » Nov 13 2017 12:24

PS: Post pictures of your new auxiliaries!
There is too much army-lists and not enough pictures in this forum these days :P

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Harkus959
Shas'Saal
Posts: 131

Re: Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#5 » Nov 13 2017 12:53

Fluff wise this should be absolutely fine. The available models are limited to Kroot and Vespid, but in the lore, Tau are willing to ally with any alien races they encounter, unless they are given sufficient evidence to the contrary (i.e. Orks) so there's nothing in the background to prevent lizardman aliens becoming allies of the Tau.

So, if you just want to use the models, I say convert them to be cool "counts as" kroot or vespid. I think most people would be absolutely fine with that, but as has already been mentioned, be sure to check with your opponents.

Now, if you want to make up new rules for these models and use them as an entirely new unit, that might be more difficult.

My best advice though would be to take this conversation over to the experimental rules lab (viewforum.php?f=63) here on ATT. You should be able to get some useful tips, and very helpful feedback on putting together a balanced set of rules for the new unit.

Personal opinion? This sounds really cool wether you just want to use the models or create new rules. But maybe I'm just biased because I love dinosaurs and have always had a soft spot for the saurus.

Good luck. :)

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#6 » Nov 13 2017 01:28

Yeah not a fan of homebrew rules.
However as an advice from me: try to orientate yourself on already existing units and their stats.

So firstly: are they supposed to be a horde unit or a elite unit? For a horde unit you can look at units like Ork Boyz, Khorne/Slaanesh Daemons and Purestrain Genestealer. For more elite units you can look at Khorne Berzerker, Possessed, Deathcompany, etc.
I don't know much about Eldar or Necron melee units so I can't give any examples there unfortunately.

Anyway, that way you already have a solid basis to work with and only need to tweak things until it fits.

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SinisterSamurai
Kor'La
Kor'La
Posts: 399

Re: Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#7 » Nov 13 2017 01:58

Right off the bat, know that Age of Sigmar's rules don't translate well into 40k 8th, so you won't be able to play the Serephon with official GW Seraphon datasheets.

If you simply set the Lizardmen down on the table, and say that they "count-as" Kroot Carnivores, you shouldn't have any real trouble at all, but Kroot may not perform the way you think the Lizardmen should perform.

A homebrew army is often prone to flights of poor balance. You and your friend would have to play test it extensively, and be willing to take criticism on when a unit is too strong for its cost. Although some gamers might relish the opportunity to play against a fun new ruleset, you will generally have a harder time finding games to play including homebrew rules. It is very unlikely that you'll ever be able to field them as allies in a tournament of any kind, even narrative ones.

Another option is to convert an army into a "counts-as" army, even if that army and T'au can't ally under normal circumstances. It may be hard to bridge the mental gap between an army, say, Sisters of Battle and Lizardmen. But you are far more likely to find willing players if, when you deploy a Slann Mage, you clarify that it uses the rules for Celestine than you would be saying that you wrote the rules yourself. Some tournaments might allow the mixing of detachments, but most would probably still be off limits.

If you decide on refluffing the abilities of your chosen crunch army or homebrew unit base, keep in mind that GW uses the same rule to represent a tank exploding as it does a fearsome monster lashing out with it's final breath, and that teleporting, dropping from orbit, and digging up from underground are all mechanically the same ability.

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Nagito Komaeda
Shas'Saal
Posts: 15

Re: Seraphon for Mercs?

Post#8 » Nov 14 2017 05:28

Alrighto, due to some real life stuff (school, large scale power outage etc.), I haven't been able to respond. Until now!

First off, I'd like to thank all of you for responding, I'll surely attempt to keep it all in mind.
Now, a warning:
Walls of text are present, quotes are present, colour is present! Feast your eyes upon someone with nothing else to do!

Spoiler!
Beerson wrote:well, people generaly dislike homebrewed rules and or kodexes, so you should first check with your group if they will be cool with it, and preferably they should be the ones you will discuss the rules with the most, they might not find it balanced or fun, especially as you are basicly bringing something to T'au army that has no place there (close combat)
As we have figured that, indeed, we have to be careful of balancing et cetera, we'll surely give it fair rules as far as we can make it happen, so will point costs be! I'll not be the only one balancing, I aim to have both my allies and adversaries assist in the rule-making process
honestly, I can't imagine bringing some new model to my very friendly group and say this is new unit, it has these rules...

also there is a possibility (solid rumors) that we get either new auxiliaries, or at least new models/stuff for old ones, so there might be something that would partially fit your idea

First off, our group knows about this and doesn't mind. Second off, I'm not the only one doing this. Also, if new aux. drop, I'll surely take a look at them, as the Kroot mostly have a very cool appearance!

tl:dr
check with your group if they are fine with it
wait for upcoming auxiliaries before making your own

As stated in the post, I'll only start this process after the new T'au Codex drops.


joc-wi wrote:Well, I agree with Beerson that introducing Homebrew is difficult. It might be accepted in a narative campain where one person acts more like a RPG-like Game-Master than a player, but otherwise other player (and yourself) will always wonder if those are fair (or too weak).
I've come up with multiple ideas for my T'au Army to fight against a friends Deathwatch, with many advantages and disadvantages for each side. Not only that, the T'au could just be in the process of uplifting the creatures, which could cause some... complications.

BUT:

Luckily, people like us ( = people who like converting and messing around with units) can be verry happy with the current edition:

1. The most simple Game-Type offered in the Rulebook even offers to play with "all miniatures you own" (not a direct quote, since my rulebook is not the english one).

2. The indices have a pretty nice wording in most cases: "A ... is a model armed with ..." (direct quote this time). Now THAT is nice :D . Using a Warhammer-Fantasy-model as, let's say, a Tyranid Lictor is allowed even RAW. (...and other players will in most cases be ok with it anyway, as long as you use your models to enhance flair and not just as a placeholder to get powerful units you do not "own".)

3. Many opponents will want to play Battleforged Armies. Combining different Factions to one Army is not allowed in a Balanced Game (though it is in a Free Game) (I hope I get the English translations right...).
But in a friendly environment nobody will object if you play one Detachment of Tau and one Detatchment of Seraphon that use the Tyranid/Ork/Something-Rules.

It was not my plan to use Seraphon as T'au Mercenaries in store or in actual competitive play. However,
my group is very accepting of matters like this, as I'm not the only one. Your second point is interesting to me, as it highlights possibility, yet I cannot see a way for Seraphon to be converted to Kroot rule-wise, as they don't really have ranged weapons to speak of. I might look into using preset rules, but I am unsure.

Most important is, of course, to choose the rules/unit that seem best to describe the model, not the most powerful.


...Though: If your goal (and source of fun) is not in playing/modeling/narating cool auxiliaries, but in creating new rules... well, in that case you can forget all I wrote. In that case: enjoy writing those rules :-)

I will most definitely not be the only one in charge of balancing. That will just cause powercreep and powergaming to an extent, and it could even break up parts of the group, because I know these people are very fanatic as well! However, I'm sure that won't happen.

PS: Post pictures of your new auxiliaries!
There is too much army-lists and not enough pictures in this forum these days :P

Once I have them, I will surely do. However, it might be somewhere next year when I eventually get them, as I'm waiting for the T'au Codex.


Harkus959 wrote:Fluff wise this should be absolutely fine. The available models are limited to Kroot and Vespid, but in the lore, Tau are willing to ally with any alien races they encounter, unless they are given sufficient evidence to the contrary (i.e. Orks) so there's nothing in the background to prevent lizardman aliens becoming allies of the Tau.

So, if you just want to use the models, I say convert them to be cool "counts as" kroot or vespid. I think most people would be absolutely fine with that, but as has already been mentioned, be sure to check with your opponents.

The "counts as" is a tad... underwhelming imo. I'd like to experiment with possible new rules!

Now, if you want to make up new rules for these models and use them as an entirely new unit, that might be more difficult.

My best advice though would be to take this conversation over to the experimental rules lab (http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewforum.php?f=63) here on ATT. You should be able to get some useful tips, and very helpful feedback on putting together a balanced set of rules for the new unit.

Personal opinion? This sounds really cool wether you just want to use the models or create new rules. But maybe I'm just biased because I love dinosaurs and have always had a soft spot for the saurus.

Good luck. :)

Thank you, and yes, as stated in my previous answer, I do indeed wish to make custom rules. The Experimental Rules lab might help out in the long run, but I mostly want to check in with my group about their opinions on the matter.
I've specifically chosen the Seraphon as they're literal lizards riding lizards, which makes them even more amazing!
Not only that, they seem like the perfect species fluff-wise to be uplifted by the T'au, as they fill a gap that the T'au can't really fill themselves.
Embrace the saurus.


Panzer wrote:Yeah not a fan of homebrew rules.
However as an advice from me: try to orientate yourself on already existing units and their stats.

So firstly: are they supposed to be a horde unit or a elite unit? For a horde unit you can look at units like Ork Boyz, Khorne/Slaanesh Daemons and Purestrain Genestealer. For more elite units you can look at Khorne Berzerker, Possessed, Deathcompany, etc.
I don't know much about Eldar or Necron melee units so I can't give any examples there unfortunately.

Anyway, that way you already have a solid basis to work with and only need to tweak things until it fits.

My general choice is that they're mostly a Close-Combat army, with some troop choices. However,
most of them will be Elites, Heavy Support, Fast Attack etc., as that's the best way to categorize them.
The singular basis I work off of is that they're sluggish dinosaurs who are suffice in Close-Combat, but lack most ranged capabilities.


SinisterSamurai wrote:Right off the bat, know that Age of Sigmar's rules don't translate well into 40k 8th, so you won't be able to play the Serephon with official GW Seraphon datasheets.

If you simply set the Lizardmen down on the table, and say that they "count-as" Kroot Carnivores, you shouldn't have any real trouble at all, but Kroot may not perform the way you think the Lizardmen should perform.

If at all possible, please elaborate on this matter. Your wording might somewhat confuse me, and clarity is important in this case.

A homebrew army is often prone to flights of poor balance. You and your friend would have to play test it extensively, and be willing to take criticism on when a unit is too strong for its cost. Although some gamers might relish the opportunity to play against a fun new ruleset, you will generally have a harder time finding games to play including homebrew rules. It is very unlikely that you'll ever be able to field them as allies in a tournament of any kind, even narrative ones.
We'll extensively test the choices we make, mostly because we'll be the only ones using them. I might consult the Experimental Lab as well for advice in that regard, my initial post was mostly focused on seeing if something similar has happened before.

Another option is to convert an army into a "counts-as" army, even if that army and T'au can't ally under normal circumstances. It may be hard to bridge the mental gap between an army, say, Sisters of Battle and Lizardmen. But you are far more likely to find willing players if, when you deploy a Slann Mage, you clarify that it uses the rules for Celestine than you would be saying that you wrote the rules yourself. Some tournaments might allow the mixing of detachments, but most would probably still be off limits.

Might be an option, yet I like the idea of fine-tuning rules with a close group of friends as well!

If you decide on refluffing the abilities of your chosen crunch army or homebrew unit base, keep in mind that GW uses the same rule to represent a tank exploding as it does a fearsome monster lashing out with it's final breath, and that teleporting, dropping from orbit, and digging up from underground are all mechanically the same ability.
This is, indeedi, important, as I have to keep it in mind when writing down certain effects so I don't rewrite something that already exists.


For now, that is all. I may or may not have spent way too much time writing all of this, but I am elated that this drew this much attention. I'll update on the fly, and I might even get the Seraphon earlier than I would expect.

I hope for the best and the worst in people to guide my path into balance!

With honour,
Nagito Komaeda.
Remember, it's all for the sake of Ultimate Hope!

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