Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Kor'Ui
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#19 » Dec 26 2008 10:35

Dark eldar will be my second army eventually and I had a question about Scourages. When I was looking in to what my list would be I had descided that I wanted to mount Scourages in a non deticated transport so I could move them 24 inches in my turn 1 then dismount them for a refuse flank the following turn. Army builder wouldn't let me at the time but I couldn't find a rule that told me otherwise.

Can you mount Scourages in a non dedicated Raider? Mabey something about no jump infantry in a Raider or something?
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leatherback
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#20 » Dec 26 2008 08:47

Dark eldar will be my second army eventually and I had a question about Scourages. When I was looking in to what my list would be I had descided that I wanted to mount Scourages in a non deticated transport so I could move them 24 inches in my turn 1 then dismount them for a refuse flank the following turn. Army builder wouldn't let me at the time but I couldn't find a rule that told me otherwise.

Can you mount Scourages in a non dedicated Raider? Mabey something about no jump infantry in a Raider or something?


Aren't infantry models the only ones allowed in transports unless stated otherwise?
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kirstar
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#21 » Dec 31 2008 03:50

The best tactic against DE I find is shield drones. 5 monat suits with missile pods and 2 shield drones really upset the DE players. Also rail guns against DE vehicles are cool. If you hit you pen. AP1 = +1 open topped = +1 so d6+2 is dead vehicle.

The new cover rules really hurt the DE. Their array of dark lances are rubbish when everyone has 4+ cover. I also find that a large kroot force really upsets their CC units as well.

The one unit I would watch for is their lord with the 2+ invuln save.
Last edited by kirstar on Jan 06 2009 12:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Kor'Ui
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#22 » Jan 06 2009 12:45

§plit§econd wrote:Dark eldar will be my second army eventually and I had a question about Scourages. When I was looking in to what my list would be I had descided that I wanted to mount Scourages in a non deticated transport so I could move them 24 inches in my turn 1 then dismount them for a refuse flank the following turn. Army builder wouldn't let me at the time but I couldn't find a rule that told me otherwise.

Can you mount Scourages in a non dedicated Raider? Mabey something about no jump infantry in a Raider or something?


Doh, BBB, PG 66, Under Transport Capacity, 3rd paragraph. 5e forbids jump infantry to ride in transports....noooo. DE needs a new dex anyway but still....nooo!
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BikesR'Fun
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#23 » Feb 02 2009 10:54

kirstar wrote:The best tactic against DE I find is shield drones. 5 monat suits with missile pods and 2 shield drones really upset the DE players. Also rail guns against DE vehicles are cool. If you hit you pen. AP1 = +1 open topped = +1 so d6+2 is dead vehicle.

The new cover rules really hurt the DE. Their array of dark lances are rubbish when everyone has 4+ cover. I also find that a large kroot force really upsets their CC units as well.

The one unit I would watch for is their lord with the 2+ invuln save.


I would avoid kroot against DE in general if your plan is to use them as CC units. Even with hounds, they will always strike at best simultaneously against DE. The Wyches are VERY vulnerable to Kroot's mass S4 AP5 fire though, and can be used as a shooty unit. In CC with the Wyches, the Kroot will be devoured unless you brought a whole ton of them and you get really lucky.

Aranarth
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#24 » Feb 13 2009 10:14

BikesR'Fun wrote:...Kroot's mass S4 AP5 fire...


Man, I wish ;)
Hopefully when a new Tau codex swings around the Kroot finally realize that fixing blades onto pulse rifles would be much smarter :roll: . And maybe the Tau would finally throw the Kroot a bone and give them access to photon and EMP nades. Yeah, we wish.

Since I don't just want to be pointing out mistakes, do DE have the equivalent of frag grenades? I'm sure they have some ability to negate CC cover advantages, but what is it? If not, then the kroot ought to be fine in CC against them. Even better, a small kroot squad with a few Oxen would be great for giving Raiders and Ravagers even more headache -- especially if they happen to wander into rapid fire range.
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BikesR'Fun
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#25 » Feb 13 2009 11:35

No- please do point out mistakes. Anything you point out I can edit to make this a better thread, besides, you and I may disagree on points. That discussion would help out other members.
And by S4 AP5 fire, I obviously meant S4 AP6 fire, but it still is effective against Wyches. Wounding on a 3+ and ignoring saves against models that cost 12-14 points each is pretty amazing for a model costing you 7 points. With one turn of firing at range the squad will have almost payed for over half itself. (18 kroot, 9 hits, 6 wounds, squad has to take a morale check, and you've just payed for 72-84 points in one turn. That's pretty effective if you ask me...)
As for wyches, not as such (I don't have my book with me ATM but that's what I can recall). Wyches normally attack in initiative order, but they do get their 'dodge' save. If this isn't enough to save them, they also can have the 'always strike first' combat drug.

If I was playing against you though, and you took kroot, I wouldn't use unmounted Wyches. An assault warrior squad would work better, since they CAN be given grenades. And if one wasn't available, I could just tankshock the kroot with a terror amp-equipped raider carrying the wyches and then assault into the unit outside of cover. If I had brought neither of those things, I would simply avoid the kroot, or just overkill them with the Archon/ite. Trust me, I've played with Dark Eldar since end of 2nd/ beginning of 3rd (first army, luckily I found another player to help me learn how to play w/ them), so I know how the DE mind works (rules lawyering their way to survival, haha.)

The only thing about the Oxen is that they're pretty expensive and immobile. If you used them to hold an objective, that'd make sense, but otherwise I can't see the DE player wandering into their rapid-fire range. If you could arrange that to happen, then I could see them being useful as well, but you do have to remember that the MP is much better suited for the task on a point-point basis. (2 MP shots, 1 hit, .5 P hits, ~.2 G Hits, 1/6+1/25 results for a single missile pod, which works out to be something like 5 MP hits for a near guaranteed downed raider. Much better for D-rain suits.

Aranarth
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#26 » Feb 13 2009 01:51

Well I don't have much experience with the DE on either end, so the amount I can contribute to the thread is limited (I come here to eagerly learn all the secrets to beating them). However, my focus is more on TAC strategy, as I really consider formulating strategies to counter specific enemies not all that challenging. If, of course the matchup is naturally imbalanced, then it's naturally imbalanced and it therefore is a total waste of time to worry about that! However from a TAC philosophy standpoint, neither is it a good use of time to point out that for every tactic you may try there exists a counter from the other army. If the game of 40K is balanced (which I believe it is overall), then of course you ought expect that any enemy can counter what you do in some way. The TAC philosophy is more concerned with, what tactics and units am I likely to face, and will the tactics and units I am likely going to be using run right into a wall against them? At the risk of sounding too much like a certain ex-secretary of defense, how can I best use the army I have rather than the army I wish I had?

So, when you say that the DE are likely to do such and such if I take a kroot with oxen squad, I simply think, "well this is assuming a lot of things about how the rest of my army is composed and how it's deployed... how can I use and place the kroot in relation to the DE force and to the rest of my forces that will prevent the DE from using their best tactical option given whatever army they have?"

I just think it's a mistake to emphasize unit compositions when evaluating tactics from a TAC standpoint -- I assume that the DE will have a TAC list as well, so I plan to face whatever the DE commonly take and use. Planning to face armies on the assumption that they will have exactly what they need to counter exactly what you use is tantamount to admitting defeat, and can lead to a hopelessly defeatist mindset.

For example, my current TAC list does include Broadsides. This thread basically asserts that "Broadsides are going down to DE. Period." A Mathhammer mindset may think, "well then, I can't take them." As for me, my TAC sense tingles. "If so," I think, "then I'll just have to use them in such a way as to make the DE pay dearly for their loss, won't I."

I know very little about the DE in general, but since I think of things from the TAC viewpoint, here are my conclusions about keys to victory:

Deploy forces such that you force the DE to commit to assault you at close range but still limit the amount of your total firepower that is threatened by assault. So if I took broadsides and I could not keep them in reserve, I would simply place them in a location which would force assaulting units into the most disadvantageous position possible relative to the rest of my army (Read: not in cover and in range of a lot of guns, yet out of range of assault). This requires that a great part of my army be flexible in both mobility and deployment, but not ALL.

As a side note, meeting opponents who like to inform me of how quickly my broadsides will be destroyed seems to be quite common. Does this happen to other people as well? And when it happens to you, do you, like me, smile smugly on the inside ;)
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."

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BikesR'Fun
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Re: Dark Eldar Tactica- the looming threat

Post#27 » Feb 16 2009 06:00

Yeah, I see what you're saying Aranarth. I posted this guide mostly to give little hints as to what sort of things will work well against others. The thing is, not everyone has the same exact TAC list, despite what a lot of people tend to think. Some people like the Firestorm, some like the Fireknife, some go for railgun heavy lists, while others go for marker heavy lists. These pairings can go on and on. The point of the article was not exactly to say, take these units so you can beat the Dark Eldar, but give ideal counter units for the purposes of outlining exactly what you said below. As for tactics, I've found that these vary greatly based on the way the terrain is set up, and the player you are facing.

I don't think Broadsides are going down to DE, far from it. I just think that they are overkill against much of the army. This doesn't mean they don't have uses. One pair of Broadsides shooting at a Ravager will a. almost positively down it, and b. have paid for themselves (Victory Point wise) (almost) fully.

Honestly, against a Dark Eldar army, there are three types of tourny level armies, despite the diversity my post (deliberately) gave them. Warrior sniper squad spam (tons of Dark Lances), mobile Kabal (lots of Raiders and assault oriented units) and Wych Cult (either Webway Portal or Raider.) The point of an army like Dark Eldar is to be able to pull off fancy surprising tactics, and with their incredibly high average movement speed, catching you off guard is never too hard to do. The best route to victory against these guys is to think as many turns ahead as you possibly can.

You're right about the oxen squad- I am assuming a lot about them, and the situation they'd be in. I personally don't like them, though they definitely have their merits. I would go for Deathrains for anti-light tank if it came down between the two though, even if that is simply a personal opinion.

Now, onto the buried leading comment. TAC strategy, what to expect and how to react.
Plus- some new tactics that I find work wonders against any obnoxious DE players.

With the two main raider-mounted categories of armies (ignoring WWP Wych Cult and Sniper spam for now) you can expect to take a few casualties. Drones are marvelous in this case, as heavy weapons shots will be wasted against SD's invulnerable save, and gundrones will still be able to save key units when needed.

Moving away from unit choice, generally the Dark Eldar Strategy will work much like Mech Tau- focus fire/close combat on one portion of the enemy and overwhelm it. There is one fundamental difference though- they can and will charge into close combat with your units. So how does one deal with this? Exactly like you said. Essentially play to the Kau'yon stratagem here, leaving bait units (broadsides are an excellent example, to lure the raiders to stop, a point at which their weakest, and then shoot them to pieces, leaving his army stranded in a 'disadvantageous position.' If he does ignore them (which he might) then you can continue downing his most valuable transports (the ones carrying HQ etc) one to two at a time.

I would not try to do this though with a Webway Portal army. These armies tend to be 'mob' armies, closer to what 'high I orks' would look like. A ton of grunts with some heavy weapons and a few big monsters (Talos) If you do see that he will be playing with a webway portal, I would concentrate my forces and leave anything that is less mobile in reserve to bring on after he deploys the WWP. once the portal's been opened, the Dark Eldar Player has essentially committed himself to one location, and you can move to a more advantageous location. You can also be proactive on this part by deploying out of cover, giving you the widest firing lanes, limiting where the player will be able to hide long enough to drop his portal.

Anyways, thank you Aranarth. I appreciate your depth of thought that added considerably to the thread.
Have fun, and get us a few wins for the greater good :smile:

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