Danger of Marine Scouts

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Scoutfox
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Danger of Marine Scouts

Post#1 » Jun 14 2006 10:28

Well last night I got destroyed by Blood Angels in a 500 point game. He had three squads of scouts and a squad of assault marines with a chaplin. I had 2 Crisis suits, 3 Stealths, 10 FW, 10 Kroot, and a Warfish.

Things were good in the first round when I wiped two of his scout squads, but took a turn for the worst in the second round. I manage to kill 2 of his 5 scouts from team three but they snuck around a building and assaulted my FW. They killed a bunch and my guys ran off the board, he then consolidated into my stealths. They died the next turn. Those three scouts then killed a crisis suit the turn after that.

Playing against that army on a 3X3 board was not a good idea. Learned that I have to keep my units further apart, so they can't consolidate, and to position my Kroot so that they could have pushed back the scouts.

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stevefox
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Post#2 » Jun 14 2006 10:34

Never play the game on a board that isn't 48" deep, and at least the same wide. Period. It totaly screws up the whole mechanics and balance of the game.
'El Fox
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Bob the Avenger
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Post#3 » Jun 14 2006 10:44

I play on one that is at least 48" deep and 48" wide, usually 60-72" wide, depending on how crowded my gameing club is.

Now you know why I try and keep my units at least 6-7" apart., prevents consolidations and minimizes template weapons effects.
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Eiglepulper
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Post#4 » Jun 14 2006 11:33

Another wee pointer too regarding CC and removal of casualties: you can prevent some of your opponent's models from ever getting to attack you by removing all the models in base contact. Example:

10 FW assaulted by Chaplain (Init 5) and Assault Marines (Init 4). Chaplain is in base contact with a single FW but can reach another 4. Assault Marines are also in contact with these other four models, leaving 5 FW engaged but not in base contact. The Chaplain strikes hard and kills all 5 models in base contact with him and the Marines. You now remove these front 5 FWs, leaving no-one in base contact with the Assault marines. At least one of the Marines must still be in base contact in order to allow the Assault Marine unit to fight; none is. You cannot strike back either, so you take a Morale check on -1 for being outnumbered. You fail (hopefully!) and fall back but because no-one is in base contact, the Marines cannot pursue you and may only consolidate 3". You escape, rally next turn (well, hopefully! ;) ) and then you rapid fire the unit while the Crisis Suits come to your aid with the Marine-popping weapons!

Not the easiest to pull off, but it is an option if you can get it to work. Check out the following pages in the BGB: Page 38 "Who can fight?", Page 41 "Suffering Wounds & Removing Casualties" - para 3, and Page 43 "Sweeping Advances & Consolidation" - para 2. :evil:

E.

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Afghan Jones
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Post#5 » Jun 14 2006 11:43

this is a good tactic but so incredibly unfair.

being on the receiving end of it and discovering your super unit of death cant actually attack anyone is the most frustrating part of this flipping game.

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Scoutfox
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Post#6 » Jun 14 2006 11:49

I'm pretty sure he made the table smaller to take advantage of his army. We were only playing a combat patrol so that was his arguement. The table was 4X4, but was reduced. We also deployed in the corners so that all my forces were bunched up, also done, I think, to work to his advantage. He knew it was only my second game ever.

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spmusubi
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Post#7 » Jun 14 2006 12:15

Yeah, you got hosed. Really really try to play on the recommended board sizes. Anything smaller then 4x4 and assault armies have it easy. Anything larger then 4x8 and the shooty armies have large advantages.

Afghan: Yeah, it's bad for the assaulty player, but it's just as bad when an entire unit gets locked into CC just because one assaulting model just barely squeaked in. It's a good way to ensure that your assaults are 'clean', that is getting large amounts of models in BTB with each other.

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Mephet'ran
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Post#8 » Jun 14 2006 12:46

Thats why you place the chaplain at the back of the unit if you're afraid of this...

Hell, I do it the whole time. Chaos Lord leading raptors ? yes pleeaase.
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stevefox
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Post#9 » Jun 14 2006 01:01

Mephet'ran wrote:Thats why you place the chaplain at the back of the unit if you're afraid of this...


But then your chaplain doesn't get to fight. Its a two edged sword. The best way to attack with ICs is to have them charge separately AFTER the unit has charged in, and from an angle that will get them into B2B with the target unit. Its why my marine ICs all get jetpacks.
'El Fox

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Pap'e'wai'o
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Post#10 » Jun 14 2006 05:45

The problem with that rule is that it treats the battle as if it was static minatures fighting instead of a representation of a kinetic furious melee.

IMDHO all attacks should be based on the start of combat, models are wounded and downed if dead but not removed until after the assault phase, and do all the attacks in order of Initiative. The current rule penalises high Initiative.
Plan the Victory First, Attend the Battle Last.

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Dal'yth Mont'sha
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Post#11 » Jun 14 2006 06:50

As the assaulter, to counter E's little plan just try to ensure that you assault across as broad a front as possible so you have enemies in BtB contact out of the Chaplin's 'casualty zone'. This ensures that even after your chaplin's devastating I5 attacks, the I4 marines still have something to pound and can do their thing with sweeping advance etc.

Aside from that, stop *BAD WORD DELETED*, Death Company are damn near invincible anyway if used right.

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stevefox
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Post#12 » Jun 14 2006 07:22

Pap'e'wai'o wrote:The current rule penalises high Initiative.


No, it actually penalizes low(er) initiative, and ICs with Powerfists/THammers especially.
'El Fox

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spmusubi
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Post#13 » Jun 14 2006 07:43

Yeah, the idea is to selectively prevent heavy hitting Powerfists from inflicting damage. With good casualty removal, you can stop the I1 weaponry.

Pap'e'wai'o: If we used your suggestion, then what's the point of Initiative? If everybody gets to swing regardless, then there's not much use.

Chaos Lords leading Raptors really isn't such a great idea. In fact, there really isn't much point to it at all, as the Lord doesn't give the Raptors any bonus (i.e. Chaplain reroll) and he causes the Raptors to lose their Hit and Run special ability!

stevefox has the right idea. Unless you're using a Chaplain, then the ICs really should go in on their own. Heck, if you're worried about the Chaplain clearing the kill zone, have him use his bolt pistol first round instead.

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maximuspandem
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Post#14 » Jun 15 2006 04:13

eiglepulper wrote:Another wee pointer too regarding CC and removal of casualties: you can prevent some of your opponent's models from ever getting to attack you by removing all the models in base contact. Example:

10 FW assaulted by Chaplain (Init 5) and Assault Marines (Init 4). Chaplain is in base contact with a single FW but can reach another 4. Assault Marines are also in contact with these other four models, leaving 5 FW engaged but not in base contact. The Chaplain strikes hard and kills all 5 models in base contact with him and the Marines. You now remove these front 5 FWs, leaving no-one in base contact with the Assault marines. At least one of the Marines must still be in base contact in order to allow the Assault Marine unit to fight; none is. You cannot strike back either, so you take a Morale check on -1 for being outnumbered. You fail (hopefully!) and fall back but because no-one is in base contact, the Marines cannot pursue you and may only consolidate 3". You escape, rally next turn (well, hopefully! ;) ) and then you rapid fire the unit while the Crisis Suits come to your aid with the Marine-popping weapons!

Not the easiest to pull off, but it is an option if you can get it to work. Check out the following pages in the BGB: Page 38 "Who can fight?", Page 41 "Suffering Wounds & Removing Casualties" - para 3, and Page 43 "Sweeping Advances & Consolidation" - para 2. :evil:

E.



thats a perfectly acceptible tactic... i try to use it whenever possible
If aragorn had a boltgun, could he kill a steam tank?

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kai'lore
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Post#15 » Jun 15 2006 09:43

Yep, Chappie needs a Jump Pack! :evil:

Sorry to hear about your loss Scoutfox and yes, SM Scouts are quite good value in CP games. I think even more so with CoD.

The boys here have plenty of cool tactics and strategies to beat such guys, make sure to thank them all for their pearls of hard-fought for wisdom. :)

kai

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Pap'e'wai'o
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Post#16 » Jun 15 2006 10:42

spmusubi wrote:Pap'e'wai'o: If we used your suggestion, then what's the point of Initiative? If everybody gets to swing regardless, then there's not much use.


Not what I was saying about Initiative. I said that casualites should not be removed until the end of the assault phase. If dead they should lie down. They are still in contact with the assaulters. In no way should a unit get rewarded for its troops dieing due to differences in the attackers initiative score.

At the moment the current rule is pretty much at the top of the list of stupid things in 40K, that by failing (dieing) at the front your troops will save the lives of the guys at the back, however if your troops act like a team and fight side by side then they all die.

stevefox wrote:No, it actually penalizes low(er) initiative, and ICs with Powerfists/THammers especially.


Kind of agree, the ones who get penalized are mixed initiatives. If fighting a unit of 5 powerfists/THammers/Chainfists the opponent will not be able to create a zone of no contention but will get hit by all the attacks. Yet if you add a couple of higher intiatives to the mix you end up rewarding the opponent.
Plan the Victory First, Attend the Battle Last.

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GodHead
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Post#17 » Jun 15 2006 11:03

At the moment the current rule is pretty much at the top of the list of stupid things in 40K, that by failing (dieing) at the front your troops will save the lives of the guys at the back, however if your troops act like a team and fight side by side then they all die.


This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Troops sacrificing themselves by throwing themselves into the mouths of the enemy so their comrades can escape is a very common theme of military history and fiction.

Just because I'm the one choosing who makes that sacrifice rather than them doesn't make it any less heroic in my opinion.

"Go on without me, I'll keep these Khornate bastards busy!"
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Pap'e'wai'o
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Post#18 » Jun 15 2006 11:15

Which could make sense if the troops high tailed it and the opponents got a chance to run them down... after all they have just chosen not to fight but escape.

But at the moment the troops get rewarded for having a mixed intiative team attack them. And it treats it more as a literal static minatures game then a representation of what is happening.

Get attacked by terminators, dead.
Get attacked by marines, half alive.
Get attacked by the same terminators with the same marines supporting them, half alive as the ones all in base to base with the terminators die magically shielding the rest from attacks that they would have received if they terminators got no support.
Plan the Victory First, Attend the Battle Last.

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