NEED help fighting Chaos CHEESE.

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Troutmonkey
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NEED help fighting Chaos CHEESE.

Post#1 » Sep 16 2006 04:29

Hi I was playing a match today and this guy had an army of chaos cheese.
He seemed tobe pulling rules out of his ass and left his codex so he couldn't prove it.
I gave up and Vow never to play him again but i believe it is imminint in the coming tourny.
He gave all his units (inlcuding basic infantry) the mark of Tzeentch and declared it gave them all 2 wounds each and his sourceror got thrall wizards and could use 2 phycic powers a turn if he "sacrificed one" PLus he had terminator honours (2+ Save).
Can anyone clarify me on these rules cause it's just impossible to kill these guys.
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Mephet'ran
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Post#2 » Sep 16 2006 04:40

He was playing correctly. Tzeentch troops have 2 wounds and Thrall wizards can be sacrificed in order to use a second power.

Thousand Sons has got to be one of the weakest Chaos lists.
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HeavyLancer
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Post#3 » Sep 16 2006 03:11

Yep, meph. 1k sons should be easy for tau.
They are incredibly slow (slower than 'crons), lack heavy firepower unless it's on a vehicle, and their psychic powers aren't that good against JSJ, as they all require LOS. He can take thrall wizards, yes, but they aren't that good. Does he have models to represent the thrall wizards? If not, then he cannot use them, they may be wargear but they are models.

My advice is that you just use there immobilty against them. Deny them shooting, and they will get EATEN in CC by kroot. They are basically 'crons with better survivability, worse mobility, and some 'oh noes!' psychic powers.
Watch out for Bolt of Change against your crisis suits, as it will instakill them, and Gift of Chaos against anything valuable, on account of our sucky Intiative.
Mobilty conquers this army. And nothing is impossible.
You're only a war criminal if your side loses.

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Commander Scarleg
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Post#4 » Sep 16 2006 06:21

Good old Thousand Sons. Just concentrate your fire on one unit, In my expierence a Thousand Sons player is overly phobic about loosing men. When they've lost their confidence you've won the battle.
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Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak
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Post#5 » Sep 16 2006 06:28

To point it out clearly, the reason why they are so slow is, that the buggers suffer from the Slow and Purposeful rule, if your opponent should have forgotten to do that ;)
Ah, yes, mere infantry - poor beggars... - Plautus

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Troutmonkey
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Post#6 » Sep 16 2006 06:42

Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak wrote:To point it out clearly, the reason why they are so slow is, that the buggers suffer from the Slow and Purposeful rule, if your opponent should have forgotten to do that ;)


Yeah he did forgot about the slow and purposeful rule and I 1.
Also I forgot to mention that his Sorceror has daemonic flight :eek: and was crusing round zapping things.
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Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak
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Post#7 » Sep 16 2006 06:58

Daemonic Flight would be alright...but to "forget" the Slow and Purposeful and Initiative 1, is utter fudge... ;)
Ah, yes, mere infantry - poor beggars... - Plautus

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Troutmonkey
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Post#8 » Sep 16 2006 09:55

HeavyLancer wrote:Yep, meph. 1k sons should be easy for tau.
They are incredibly slow (slower than 'crons), lack heavy firepower unless it's on a vehicle, and their psychic powers aren't that good against JSJ, as they all require LOS. He can take thrall wizards, yes, but they aren't that good. Does he have models to represent the thrall wizards? If not, then he cannot use them, they may be wargear but they are models.

My advice is that you just use there immobilty against them. Deny them shooting, and they will get EATEN in CC by kroot. They are basically 'crons with better survivability, worse mobility, and some 'oh noes!' psychic powers.
Watch out for Bolt of Change against your crisis suits, as it will instakill them, and Gift of Chaos against anything valuable, on account of our sucky Intiative.
Mobilty conquers this army. And nothing is impossible.


Lack heavy firepower? He had a Missile Launcher, a Lascannon, and a Plasma Gun.
KROOT own em? They got pooned by his sorceror who had 2 power swords (does he still get I1?)
And no he did not represent the Thrall wizards but we was keeping count he had 4 to start with.

I hate it when people cheat to win and can't remember to bring in their bloody codex to prove it. :(
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Post#9 » Sep 17 2006 04:39

Oh dear, looks like your opponent was playing Black Legion with a Tzeentch Lord. That makes it a lot harder to defeat as he can take normal CSM for heavy weapons.
Mephet'ran

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Troutmonkey
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Post#10 » Sep 17 2006 06:30

Umm.. he had about 8 marines altogther, all with two wounds and the heavy weps were located in them. :::(
They killed the stealths in the crossfire.
Also he told me that next week he would bring back his codex and if he was wrong and he was cheating (as we've proven with the Slow and Purposeful) he would declare me the winner so I guess I won :crafty: .
Still I don't count on playing him again I just called him CHEESE and left, then played and owned IG but that was no fun. To easy. I like a challenge but not one where it's near impossible. :)
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Shas'El Kushial
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Post#11 » Sep 17 2006 06:40

Lack of models is the bane of the Tzeentch army along with its slow speed. Between the mark of Tzeentch and the cost of those psychic upgrages, those regular slow and purposeful marines while having 2 wounds but still the regular 3+ save cost as much as a terminator and sometimes more. One guy in our group toyed around with a Tzeentch Army. It's just too easy for a mobile army to stay out of their reach and pour fire into them.

The gains they get, access to psychic powers, the extra wound, true grit, and immunity from minor psychic powers, just don't come close in my opinion to outwaying the drawbacks, the slow and purposeful, the high cost per model equaling low model count, and the general unwieldiness of the army. Heck, one of his Tzeentch varients was outnumbered by a DEATHWING army even ::chuckles:: After going 0-7 with them, the Tzeentch Marines started getting repainted as Khorne Berserkers (now those guys I hate)

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btweezel
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Post#12 » Sep 18 2006 09:52

thought i'd clarify a few things for you guys

first, TS follow the S&P USR, but are not I1 (the USR overrides the codex entry) sorcerors are normal marines with psychic powers

the ICs and Aspiring Champs do not have S&P

if he gave his LT or Lord thralls and still moved at the speed of flight, he cheated. thralls only move at the speed of normal infantry

if he took rubric terminators, than they did get 2 wounds and termie armor.

First post.

nice place you got here... (wanders off looking around)

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Troutmonkey
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Post#13 » Sep 18 2006 09:45

Yey! Starts dancing around the room. I win I win!
So thrall wizards can't go fast, S&P.
Ahuh. Anyway welcome to the forums! (thanks for choosing my thread as first post!)
"see you looking around"
Hey get out of that back room! ;)
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Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak
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Post#14 » Sep 18 2006 10:43

first, TS follow the S&P USR, but are not I1 (the USR overrides the codex entry) sorcerors are normal marines with psychic powers

Nah, the Codex clearly states that they also have I1 in addition to the Slow and Purposeful rule. The rule itself has no effect whatsoever on that ruling ;) The only change they made regarding those rules was, that they wrote in the Errata, that the players should ignore the Sweeping Advance entry ;)
As for the Thralls...he is definitely supposed to represent them, as they're not just some tokens he carries with him, but actual models with their own characteristics (although they do not have any effect on his IC status, if someones thinking about that ;) ). And, as btweezel pointed out (welcome to the boards btw :) ), he definitely shouldn't be able to fly, unless he chained the Thralls to his Tzeentch flying disc, and drags them accross the battlefield :crafty:
Ah, yes, mere infantry - poor beggars... - Plautus

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Post#15 » Sep 19 2006 05:31

Lol, I actually play TS as my secondary army, they aint that bad in the group I play (never lost with tau though :nice: ).
The things you want to know is:
The main bulk of their army is slow, very slow. they are hard however and most of the times have a sorcerer in them with a power fist and a psycich power. What most of em forget is that their aspiring champion has only one wound, meaning that if the unit suffers one wound after saves (one, or an even number) he has to remove a model if capable, ik none of his sons have wounds on em he has to remove the champion. If you can do this you negate the danger most of this unit causes. There are ways to negate this, giving the champion a 2+ save, this does not work against plasma however so he also needs a 5+ invul save making his champ extremely expensive.

I most of the time bring 1 or 2 of these units, a couple of demons, 3 heavy support choices one of witch always a predator with 3 lascannons, Tzeentch has weak anti tank abilities. The problem about my army for my opponents is my lord however, I give him a bike and deamonic armour and turbo boost the bastard around the flank of his army, he probably wont die of fire except if the enemy shoots everything he's got at him (he's got the rune to). And in my second turn the demons come around my lords personal icon. By rolling his flank I can kill him most of the time, kill my lord in turn one and I'm dead however.

Hope it helps.

Oh and TS are not cheese they are the most underpowered part of chaos marines, wich doesn't mean their bad, they're just not as good as say a dedicated khorne army.

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Mephet'ran
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Post#16 » Sep 19 2006 06:51

Yep, thats a good tactic against TS troops, hit the unit with one plasma shot and they lose the only dangerous element and spend the rest of the game lumbering around doing nothing.
Railgun the Lord and the danger is all but over.
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Troutmonkey
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Post#17 » Sep 19 2006 06:53

I think chaos in general is CHEESE. You have a wargear list which can negate anything any army can throw at it.

Now if Tau had that and didn't need to limit themselves to 3 hardpoints... :crafty:
Some people would be very unhappy. Anyway you just have too many options to make them way to versetile.
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Dal'yth Mont'sha
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Post#18 » Sep 19 2006 07:52

Just because they have a lot of options doesn't make chaos 'CHEESE' as you so eloquently put it. Honestly I don't think there is such a thing as a cheesey codex, only cheesey lists.

For instance I will be running an IW army at some point, and I'm going to go out of my way to ensure it isn't an Iron Cheese list, but I will still design it to be competitive, it just won't have 4 super-preds & 12 Obliterators ;)

Your opinion of Chaos is reminiscent of Taipan's opinion of Necrons. And crying CHEESE every time you hit an army list that offers a challenge is hardly the way to approach 40K.

Suck it up, adapt your strategies and take pride in your victory over those lists, you will have earned it.

Sorry about the rant, it just bugs me that the first thing people do when they lose a game is cry Cheese from the nearest soapbox they can find.

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