NEED help fighting Chaos CHEESE.

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Soji
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Post#19 » Sep 19 2006 08:49

I agree with you, O'Mont'sha, but let's be too hard on Taumonkey, here. He came here crying "Cheese !" because his opponent was indeed uber cheesy. Not because the Chaos Codex is cheesy, but because is opponent cheated ... hu, I meant forgot all the drawbacks of his army.
Hyper tough troops (and not slow at that) with quasi-invincible Sorcerer flying around the table casting two spells per turn ? Thats both cheesy and illegal.
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spmusubi
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Post#20 » Sep 19 2006 09:53

galadrin wrote:What most of em forget is that their aspiring champion has only one wound, meaning that if the unit suffers one wound after saves (one, or an even number) he has to remove a model if capable, ik none of his sons have wounds on em he has to remove the champion. If you can do this you negate the danger most of this unit causes.


Um, this doesn't work. When a unit consists of multiple-wound models and those models take casualties, wounds must be assigned to the same model (no spreading out wounds). As the Aspiring Champion is not a multiple wound model, the Chaos player is not obligated to pull him/her/it as a casualty.

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Post#21 » Sep 19 2006 09:58

Thank you spmusubi, I found it fishy, but I wasn't sure (I really should read the BGB).
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Post#22 » Sep 19 2006 10:09

spmusubi wrote:
galadrin wrote:What most of em forget is that their aspiring champion has only one wound, meaning that if the unit suffers one wound after saves (one, or an even number) he has to remove a model if capable, ik none of his sons have wounds on em he has to remove the champion. If you can do this you negate the danger most of this unit causes.


Um, this doesn't work. When a unit consists of multiple-wound models and those models take casualties, wounds must be assigned to the same model (no spreading out wounds). As the Aspiring Champion is not a multiple wound model, the Chaos player is not obligated to pull him/her/it as a casualty.


You have unit of 8 two wound models and one single wound model. The rules say you have to remove casualties where possible, so the first wound goes on the Asp Champ as you have to remove casualties where possible.
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Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak
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Post#23 » Sep 19 2006 02:34

You have unit of 8 two wound models and one single wound model. The rules say you have to remove casualties where possible, so the first wound goes on the Asp Champ as you have to remove casualties where possible.

So actually it's a major drawback to have a single wound model, in a squad of multiwounds? Wouldn't that also mean that if you would fail to save a single wound on a Crisis team with shield drones, that the drones would have to be removed first as well, rather than taking that wound on the Crisis suit?
And would that also mean that if the said squad of Thousand Sons would take 3 wounds, you would have to remove the marine and the champion?
Did I get that right or am I missing the point here? :?
Ah, yes, mere infantry - poor beggars... - Plautus

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Post#24 » Sep 19 2006 03:48

You got that right, but it's not clear wether it is true or not. The point of this rule is to stop people from spreading out the wounds (for exemple suffering 3 wound in a Crisis team, and not losing anyone), not forcing you to remove this or that model. The intent of the rule is not to nail single wound model, so I am 100% sure that I would refuse to do that, now rule lawyering may get you there.
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Post#25 » Sep 19 2006 04:45

Well the rules do say I have to remove the champion, I hate it so give the bastard a 2+/5+ save, then I can negate this rule cus if I make a 3+ roll to save I can only alocate wounds to 3+ save models. Same goes for pesky plasma, 5+ invulnerable save helps for that, problem is the guy is 44 points without power or weapons (and that is if the asp champ upgrade is free). So TS aren't overpowered, there way to expensive to be overpowered.

Still they're fun to play and look amazing :D

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Post#26 » Sep 19 2006 04:53

I think that not only do they look awesome, they are also way cool. They are the coolest chaos guys (except for Khorne Berserkers, and His demons, but here I am biased, since my first army was devoted to bring more skulls to His trone, and my first alias was Kharn ...).
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Post#27 » Sep 19 2006 05:25

Yes, please don't be harsh on me. I only a wittle boy ;)
Nah, the fact that he needed to cheat to beat me is the reason why I think it's cheese.
As I said before I don't mind a challenge I just don't like it when they cheat or it's cheese. I will downgrade my comment that ALL chaos is cheese it's just that I was unhappy at the time. :sad:
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Dal'yth Mont'sha
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Post#28 » Sep 19 2006 06:50

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to sound harsh. Just so many people jump on the 'cheese' bandwagon when it is probably really something else, like in this case it was actually a cheating player not a cheesey list.

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Post#29 » Sep 19 2006 08:06

Mephet'ran wrote:
spmusubi wrote:
galadrin wrote:What most of em forget is that their aspiring champion has only one wound, meaning that if the unit suffers one wound after saves (one, or an even number) he has to remove a model if capable, ik none of his sons have wounds on em he has to remove the champion. If you can do this you negate the danger most of this unit causes.


Um, this doesn't work. When a unit consists of multiple-wound models and those models take casualties, wounds must be assigned to the same model (no spreading out wounds). As the Aspiring Champion is not a multiple wound model, the Chaos player is not obligated to pull him/her/it as a casualty.


You have unit of 8 two wound models and one single wound model. The rules say you have to remove casualties where possible, so the first wound goes on the Asp Champ as you have to remove casualties where possible.


"When a unit contains several multiple-Wound models and those models take wounds, you must remove whole multiple-Wound models from the unit as casualties where possible..." (BGB, pg27)

There isn't a rule that says you must remove casualties wherever possible, only that you must remove multiple-Wound models from the unit as casualties whenever possible. As an Aspiring Champion is not a multiple-Wound model, there's no rule saying the first wound must be assigned to him.

A Rubric squad taking a single plasma wound will assign the wound to a Rubric Marine, who carries on with a single wound remaining. The next wound must be assigned to the same marine, as he is a multiple-Wound model.

It's rather suprising that Thousand Sons players don't know this wording of this rule, as it's really goofy to watch people shooting single shots out of a squad in the hopes of 'sniping' out the Champion.

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Post#30 » Sep 19 2006 11:25

Hmm, you're right, well then I guess you just have to get ToF on them and hope the Asp Champ fails his save.
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Post#31 » Sep 20 2006 03:33

You're right, I reread the rules yesterday'evening and found the same thing, that just made my asp champ a lot cheaper :D. Sorry about that mistake, must have read it wrong the first time. Now you should fear the 9 man thousand sons squad. Not much you can do except ToF em.

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Post#32 » Sep 20 2006 04:47

Or just ignore them, even the powers of the Champ aren't that scary if the unit is only moving d6 a turn.
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Soji
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Post#33 » Sep 20 2006 06:31

As for weird results of rule lawyering, we have a policy around here : if it's stupid, don't use it. If you can explain it, go ahead. The rules are supposed to help you simulate, but they are not perfect, each time we are faced with an obvious exemple of broken rule, we fix it. Example in Warhammer Fantasy Battle : mortar can't shoot a unit it cannot see, but a catapult can. Both use similar munition and they follow the same trajectory, and are used by the same servant. But sinc one is made of wood, it can use signals from other troops, and since the other is made of metal it can only relies on their own eyes ...
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Post#34 » Sep 20 2006 08:23

No problem guys, we're all here to help each other with the game. :)

Thousand Sons usually fare rather badly against Tau due to their lack of mobility, however the Key psychic power (from White Dwarf) has given the Sons a bit of new life. Working in the same way as the Necron Veil of Darkness (except obviously a psychic ability), it lets the Sons Deep Strike all over the battlefield so they don't have to Slow and Purposeful everywhere they go. Even though its an optional rule, a lot of the players here have been trying it out since it really does help out an underpowered list.

Of course, now that I've said that, the last RTT here was won by a Thousand Sons player (NOT using the Key) who used loads of multicasted Bolt of Change (sorta like a lascannon) to just rip through a couple of Terminator heavy armies.

Soji: Empire don't have a catapult, do they? /new Empire player. If it's the Bretonnian Trebuchet, I figure that because of how tall it is, a spotter can perch on top of it in order to spot over intervening troops.

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Soji
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Post#35 » Sep 20 2006 09:32

No, Empire army.
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spmusubi
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Post#36 » Sep 20 2006 02:17

Empire has a catapult? Really? Is it out of one of the supplements or addons or something?

/in the midst of assembling an Empire battalion

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