For all new Tau Players: Dealing with Eldar

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Chronon
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Post#19 » Oct 02 2006 10:09

Very true Soji, the missile pod - especially en masse - is a scary weapon to an Eldar commander. Eldar have a lot of S6 weapons, power weapons (S6, too, if the rumors about the new Shining Spears are true), and AP 2/1 weapons, though, so XV8s are relatively easy to kill (especially once the Eldar get close). The Eldar do not, however, have a lot of S7 or higher weapons with high rates of fire (although they do have a few high-strength, short-range, single shot weapons). As long as you can avoid the Falcons (or, more realistically, keep them shaken), the combination of AV13 and skimmers moving fast makes the Hammerhead a hard nut to crack.

The ideal list would, of course, include both Crisis suits and Hammerheads. But if you're tight on points and have a choice between a third Hammerhead or third unit of XV8s, I would recommend the Hammerhead.

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Megawatt
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Post#20 » Oct 02 2006 11:14

I play against Beil Tan on occasion and the Wave Serpent is about as nasty a unit as there is anywhere, Holo field, spirit stone, coupled with Star or "D" Cannons. It is probally my number one target. To say they are on par with a Warfish? I can't see it.

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Post#21 » Oct 02 2006 11:18

Wave Serpents can't have Holo fields, thank god. That would make it by far the hardest tank to kill in this game. D-cannons are fairly rare (short range and lack of mobility, only on H wep platforms IIRC), starcannon/vyper spam + 3 Falcons w/ guide Farseers are the worst.

Although, if I have understood the last FAQ from GW properly Farseers are no longer allowed to cast Guide while in transports ! No more re-rolling Falcons, that really was a nightmare.

An interesting Crisis config against Eldar might be thr FS+ or the FK+, any maths genius care to do the crunching ? Those two vs their standard counter-parts ?
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Chronon
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Post#22 » Oct 02 2006 12:28

Megawatt, I believe that you are thinking about the Falcons, of which Biel-Tal players usually field two or three (depending on the point level of the game). I would agree that the Falcon is one of the meanest units in 40k - it's really in a league of its own, incomparable with the Devilfish or the Hammerhead.

You're right Mephet'ran, the new FAQ has made many Eldar players extremely upset - I think many of them will switch to jetbiking Farseers rather than having them ride inside.

The rumor is that the new codex will add Doom (re-roll to-wounds in both shooting and CC against the target unit) to the list of Farseer psychic powers. If that's true, we'll see plenty of jetbiking Farseers with Doom supporting units disembarking from Falcons and Wave Serpents. Just something to look forward to... ;)

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Soji
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Post#23 » Oct 02 2006 01:37

"Sorry, since your Farseer is comfortably seated in the transport, and the weapon servant is 4 inches away from him, you can't cast a spell. Now just wait till you are running like mad, dodging bolts and lasers in the fog, wounded, exhausted, and more importantly, wait for your target to get out of your sight, dozens of meter in the other drection. Then you will any able to cast it."
So unit in transport are actually in an alternate dimension where nothing can affect them. And they have to get out each time some paint comes off their ride (thank the gods, they changed that).

Yes, nothing can beat an Ion Cannon mounted on a Hammerhead, not straight out. But if you just compare to Firestorm suits, when Hammerhead whip out 3 S7 shot, the suits can get 5 of those for the same cost, plus the pulse fire. More raw firepower means that if you pack enough, you will wipe out the ennemy before you can suffer any significant loss. And the superior AP of the Ion Cannon (or should I say "inferior" ?) isn't of much use here.

Number crunching ? I could do this if I knew against what. I don't know what Eldar player usually field and how those resist. i havent play against Eldar much since ... several years.
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Mephet'ran
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Post#24 » Oct 02 2006 02:14

Against AV 12, T3 4+ and T3 3+. That pretty much encompasses Eldar.
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Soji
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Post#25 » Oct 02 2006 02:43

OK, I'll get to it after my movie, just wait a few more minutes.
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Megawatt
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Post#26 » Oct 02 2006 03:12

Hmmm... No Holo Field on a Wave Serpent... Don't usually do it but, might have to ask to see his codex.

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Soji
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Post#27 » Oct 02 2006 05:46

So we have AV 12, T3 4+ and T3 3+ for the Eldar (I don't know the rules for holo field and such, I'll forget those and just do the base, we will add the details later).
And we have Missile Pod, Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle and Burst Cannon on the Crisis that can be Fireknife, Firestorm, Deathrain, or Bladestorm (and all of those can sport TA on the team leader, except for the DR that can always have it). We also have Ion Cannon and Railgun as well as SMS and Pulse weaponry (Stealth and Fire Warriors).

Let's get to it ...
What we can note right away is that Pulse fire has the same chance to wound as anythig else now, but can't hurt the AV12.
If you don't want the details, just jump to the part in green, the final number are her, effectiveness per suit on the left, effectiveness per point on the right. First is against infantry, the second against AV12.

Against Armor Value 12 :

MP : 33% glance + 33% penetrating
FB : 50% penetrating
PR : 16% glancing
BC : useless
SMS : useless
Ion Cannon : 50% glance + 50% penetrating
Railgun : 83% penetrating normally, reduced to 50% glance on those nightmarish Eldar vehicles (S reduced to 8 plus only glanced allowed due to skimmer moving fast)
(remember that those are average figure, not probability of obtaining said result)
ion Cannon is wonderful (best effectiveness and durability), and Missile Pod works wonder (better cost effectiveness), but anything else is a waste of your points.

Additional notes : once again weapon are always considered firing at their normal rate, on one shot for rapid fire. Those are the average damage on hit, if you want to get the chance to damage on shoot, reduce those figures by half for normal shooting (for example FK), by one third when equiped with a TA (like the Ion Cannon), and one fourth if twin-linked (Broadside Railgun, or DeathRain).


Against T3 S4+/3+

MP : 30/10
FB : 15/15
PR : 15/15
BC : 22.5/15
SMS : 30/20
Ion Cannon : 45/45
Railgun : 15/15
(as you can see, 15 means "dead on 2+")
Conclusion : anything that hit reaally hard is just gonna be wasted, everything from PR to RG just kill on 2+, so it's just a matter of how many shot you have, this is why against weak Eldar SMS and MP are the best, followed by BC. The "tough" eldar are very much like Meq, except Burst Cannon wound them a tad bit easier, so it becomes exactly as effective as plasma or fusion. SMS and Pulse fire are the only things that do doesn't instant kill.

Additional notes : once again weapon are always considered firing at their normal rate, on one shot for rapid fire. Pulse carabine is one third the effectiveness of the BC (so it's 7.5/5). TA raise the accuracy (and hence the effectiveness) by 33%, twin-linking raise it by 50%, doing both raise it by 77% (for exemple Deathrain with TA would be at effectiveness 53/18 against infantry). If you wanted to know, those are the average kill you get out of 36 turn of fire (I don't care waht they are, I just want to compare the weapon to each other), so if you want the average kill, divide by 36.

Crisis Configuration comparison :

Code: Select all

Effectiveness against infantry
FK-3 : 1.25/0.70 || 2.01/1.13
FK-4 : 1.67/0.92 || 2.17/1.19
FS-3 : 1.46/0.70 || 2.92/1.4 (exactly ^_^)
FS-4 : 1.94/0.92 || 2.98/1.42
DR-3 : 1.25/0.40 || 2.71/0.87
DR-4 : 1.47/0.50 || 2.88/0.98
BS-3 : 1.03/0.83 || 1.78/1.43
BS-4 : 1.39/1.11 || 1.90/1.44


Additional notes : the figures are raw effectiveness on the first column, and point efficiency on the second column. Raw efficiency is the number of kill for 1 turn of shooting, and we divide that by the cost to show how wisely are those points spent, this gives the percent of kill per point spent.
Those figures are presented X/Y where X is against save 4+, and Y is against save 3+.
When calculating the price of the suits for the '+' version, I factor in the "Team Leader" upgrade, except for the Death Rain where it is not nescessary (the standard version is fitted with BSF).
To avoid confusion FK is Fireknife, FS is Firestorm, DR is Deathrain, and BS is Bladestorm (or Aurora). The number in the name is the BS of the shooter.

Code: Select all

Effectiveness against eldar skimmer
FK-3 : 41% || 66.13
FK-4 : 55% || 71.43
FS-3 : 33% || 66 (once again exactly ^_^ !)
FS-4 : 44% || 67.69
DR-3 : 50% ||108.70
DR-4 : 60% ||113.21
BS-3 :  8% || 13.79
BS-4 : 11% || 15.07

The first column is the average number of glancing hit in %, assuming all hit are downgraded due to the speed. The second column mesure the point effectiveness of the configuration, the higher, the better.

So that's it, here are the number crunching all done.
Last edited by Soji on Nov 07 2006 08:40, edited 3 times in total.
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Post#28 » Oct 02 2006 06:00

So here are the maths. As expected, the Deathrain does veeery poorly against save 3+, but it is 71% more effective than the next best thing against AV12, and that's for the trooper version, not the team leader ! And it appear that against 4+ infantry, even if it lacks a second weapon, it still does pretty good. It is only second to the firestorm in point efficiency, and as for trooper suits it is the most effective suits in raw firepower.
My conclusion is "Yay for Deathrain-4 on the Shas'ui flanking the team leader". It has the biggest range, constant firepower, and is the most powerful configuration against AV12 and save 4+ as well as the cheapest ! (well not exactly, it's 1 more point than the Firestorm-3). It has only one thing it cannot handle : save 3+. That's where the team leader come into action, with either a FK-4 variant (the best at killing those, except for Aurora), or a FS-4 variant (the most point effective in everything save destroying vehicle). Alternatively a monat Aurora could hunt down the heavy armor (it stops the eldar from running).

I expected the Deathrain to end up "less effective configuration of the week", I guess I still have much to learn.

What do you think ?
(I think that I shouldn't have spent 1 hour and a half working on that, bad for my eyes).
Last edited by Soji on Nov 07 2006 08:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Post#29 » Oct 02 2006 11:30

Mm, that is interesting, although I must say I did think that the Deathrain would be the most effective (and said as much in my previous posts). Mixed teams of Deathrain and FS or FK seem to be the way to go against Eldar.
Something like this: 2 XV8: 1 w/ t-l MP, TA. TmLd w/ BC, MP, MT, TA.

Soji, Holo-field means that when you get a glancing or a penetrating you roll two dice instead of one and take the lowest. This coupled with Spirit Stones (roll d6, 4+ ignores Shaken or 4,5 reduces Stunned to Shaken, 6 ignore) makes Falcons very very hard to kill.
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Soji
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Post#30 » Oct 03 2006 06:41

I remember the effect of the Spirit stone, but I didn't know the Holofield did that (I knew they could reroll damage and keep the lower result, though, but I thought it was a buit-in feature). The good news is that it doesn't change the glancing hit ration, only the number you need. I'll get my hand on the Eldar Codex in a few hours, and I'll add some more stats.

One thing to note is that TA are always very effective and cost effective, the ability to geta TA for a "non team leader" unit is one of the strength of the Deathrain, don't forget to use it.
55/1/0

Soji, as always at your service

Atomic
Shas
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Post#31 » Oct 03 2006 10:31

Soji wrote:

Code: Select all

Effectiveness against infantry
FK-3 : 1.25/0.70 || 2.01/1.13
FK-4 : 1.67/0.92 || 2.17/1.19
FS-3 : 1.46/0.70 || 2.92/1.4 (exactly ^_^)
FS-4 : 1.94/0.92 || 2.98/1.42
DR-3 : 1.25/0.40 || 2.71/0.87
DR-4 : 1.47/0.50 || 2.88/0.98
BS-3 : 1.03/0.83 || 1.78/1.43
BS-4 : 1.39/1.11 || 1.90/1.44


Code: Select all

Effectiveness against eldar skimmer
FK-3 : 41% || 66.13
FK-4 : 55% || 71.43
FS-3 : 33% || 66 (once again exactly ^_^ !)
FS-4 : 44% || 67.69
DR-3 : 50% ||108.70
DR-4 : 60% ||113.21
BS-3 :  8% || 13.79
BS-4 : 11% || 15.07


So that's it, here are the number crunching all done.


Yes Basil, but what does it all mean?

I promise no more Austin Powers quotes if you can explain that as you would to a three year old or someone who likes Austin Powers.

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Soji
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Post#32 » Oct 03 2006 12:30

You just have to read what's below :

Additional notes : the figures are raw effectiveness on the first column, and point efficiency on the second column. Raw efficiency is the number of kill for 1 turn of shooting, and we divide that by the cost to show how wisely are those points spent, this gives the percent of kill per point spent.
Those figures are presented X/Y where X is against save 4+, and Y is against save 3+.
Meaning that this line

Code: Select all

DR-3 : 1.25/0.40 || 2.71/0.87

contain the following information : A Deathrain with BS 3 will kill 1.25 eldar Dire Avenger in one turn, and 0.4 eldar Scorpion on average. And thus for each point spent in a Deathrain-3 give a 2.71% chance of killing a Dire Avenger, or 0.87% chance of killing a Scorpion.
Another example : FK-3 and FS-3 both kill 0.7 scorpion per turn, but since the FS is cheaper, when you only get 1.13% of killing one by spending points on a FK-3, you get 1.4% chance of killing one for ech point spent to get a FS..

Am I clear ?

If I am I'll look into the Vypers. Being armor 10, they are very vulnerable to MP and Burst cannon. A quick study shows that a Deathrain-4 and Firestorm-3 are as effective against them (well, DR is 1.5% more powerful and 2% more expensive), but you have to take into account the fact that the FS-4 is 33% more effective, which makes it great against Vyper. Of course, the range is a main factor here, so don't forget it.
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Soji, as always at your service

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Chronon
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Post#33 » Oct 04 2006 10:10

Great analysis Soji. Thanks for posting the numbers - they are extremely helpful.

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Soji
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Post#34 » Oct 05 2006 07:41

You're welcome ^_^ ! I'm not really good at explaining, so do not hesitate not make comment or tell me how to write those post, and if you need any more of that, there's more from where that came from (be it about Eldar or anything else), so just ask.
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Post#35 » Oct 05 2006 07:45

Chronon wrote:Great analysis Soji. Thanks for posting the numbers - they are extremely helpful.

And double posting to just to make sure we know what she's going on about ;)
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Soji
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Post#36 » Oct 05 2006 07:46

Wooops, I dd some computer problem back then (wasn't using my own IIRC), sorry for that one. Now if an Op would be kind enough to erase it ...
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Soji, as always at your service

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