New Eldar

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Eiglepulper
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Post#55 » Oct 20 2006 06:14

Prodigalson wrote:The Harliquin save is 5++.

If you want a fully tooled harliquin squad (10 men) it's going to cost you around 250 pts or so. If you want to attached the Farseer for the re-rollable invulnerable, we're talking at least another 100 pts... so 350.

If you are mobile then you will laugh this army off the board.... Great... they move 12 if they are lucky, all our stuff moves that far every turn. They will destroy your static units (Kroot, Non Devilfished FW and Broadsides) but everything else will fade away while destroying them with smart missiles and AFB. It does encourage you to take smart missiles on every vehicle we have, that's for sure.


Just remember that the Shadowseer has the psychic power Veil of Tears (kept over from the Trial Codex thankfully!) which does not require a psychic test for it to work ( it follows the rules for Warlock powers), and it means that anyone wishing to target the unit she is with rolls one less than the normal multiplier for Night Fight which means that the average distance rollable will be 14". So we are likely to start seeing a few more BSFs in our lists if we know we will be facing Harlies.

Harlies also have Fleet of Foot, so minimum movement is 13" if they don't shoot.

E.

Ryzouken
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Post#56 » Oct 20 2006 07:50

I had a flash of insight. There is a way for Tau to lock down an enemy FoF/SoF tactic, but it's difficult to accomplish and wildly experimental.

Ignore the tank. Fire with carbines.

Now markerlight hits make the whole thing easier, but as is, Eldar's one true weakness (besides having an abysmal T and Sv) is their morale. They lack the ATSKNF spec rule and their aspect warriors are at best ld 9 (including exarch) and they lack a vast number of fearless units. Assuming a lack of Avatar (or that you've done the smart thing and shot it to death or they've done the stupid thing and outpaced it), you can use pulse carbines and markerlights to lock down an SoF unit with pinning. Now granted, it's not certain and it means they've already SoFed you with a Bladestorm, but if you can bait out an SoF (with kroot for example) you can then mark the living heck out of the SoF unit following it up with a rail rifle or pulse carbine round. If you get enough marker hits (a use for Pathfinders again, perhaps) then they'll either auto fail or regularly fail their morale. The catch is: it's going to need 6-8 marker hits which means 12-16 markerlights. Fielding two units of Pathfinders would work, skyrays would be beneficial (alongside sniper drone teams and SMT's), but it's going to be horribly point ineffecient. But it's worth a thought.

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Soji
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Post#57 » Oct 20 2006 07:50

I don't think BSF will help against veil of Tears. As far as I know they don't against Stealth or Vindicare.
55/1/0

Soji, as always at your service

mont'ka
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Post#58 » Oct 21 2006 08:51

No I don't think BSF or Accute senses are of use, both are specified to work with night fighting rules.
Veil of tears has to do with terrorising and confusing the enemy.

We ran a couple of units of against the Harlie's yesterday.
10 Troupe with shadow seer and Kiss'es all over cost 250pts.
Best counter unit, at less points was a 10 man Dire avenger squad with the works 32 shuriken shots nailed them 2 out of 3 times, last time the Harlie's got a really good FoF role and got the DA's of guard.
Also rather good was a 7 man Grey Knight squad with 2 Psycannons deepstriking, apart from a very bad scatter role[right on top!] they didn't break a sweat killing the Clowns.
And also good; a 6man Stealth team with TA's and a leader[just to make an even 250].
First time went wrong as I forgot the Harlie's also count as being Plasma grenade equiped, so moving in shooting half the squad and bunching up to get charged and then go first with13 attacks went slightly wrong, my bad.
Second time I just charged in and killed the left-overs from the shooting with ease.
Ofcourse these were just test runs outside a battlefield environment and a one on one situation, not likely to be pulled of for real.
Cheers B.

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Pathfinder
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Post#59 » Oct 21 2006 09:01

A question though, is the 5+ save an inv save ?

Code: Select all


Yes it is. :::(
Saying "anything but a 1" always gets you a 1.

Ryzouken
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Post#60 » Oct 21 2006 09:34

Well... Imperials have it made vs. Harlies. The rest of us are hosed, but Imperials can just field Psycannons and Bolter weapons with Psycannon Bolts. Take that invul save!

Chaos, too, can ignore invul saves.

The rest of us are hosed.

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Soji
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Post#61 » Oct 22 2006 01:10

How does chaos ignores invulnerable save ?
55/1/0

Soji, as always at your service

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Post#62 » Oct 22 2006 02:08

Dreadaxe
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HeavyLancer
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Post#63 » Oct 22 2006 02:20

Ryzouken, great idea with the pinning! How about you use a unit of GD's to pin them, in addition to a SS marker team, though? That's much more survivable, and makes them hurt even more.

Or use a lure. The eldar player unloads the avengers, your lure gets hit with overkill, then you get them with stealths.
You're only a war criminal if your side loses.

Ryzouken
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Post#64 » Oct 22 2006 05:33

the problem with using a lure is if the target doesn't hit the lure. Also, if your use a particularly juicy lure, your opponent may catch on making him wary.

Gun drones and the like work fine for creating a pin test, but you need to be able to lower the target's morale to a level where you're virtually guaranteed that the tactic will have results. This requires the use of two SMT's unless you're sinking more than 300 points into a single team. My standard SMT runs three marks, and I remember the standard config for SMT's being four marks so I ran my numbers based on the standard of 4/team. Two teams gives about 4 marks on average resulting in the Avengers testing on Ld 5. Using a Sniper Drone Team instead of Gun Drones ensures that the all important pinning wound isn't saved and also lumps an extra marker into the equasion half the time.

Remember that Carbines are Ap 5 and Avengers have a 4+ save.

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Eiglepulper
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Post#65 » Oct 22 2006 08:01

Ryzouken wrote:Well... Imperials have it made vs. Harlies. The rest of us are hosed, but Imperials can just field Psycannons and Bolter weapons with Psycannon Bolts. Take that invul save!


So what is the Eldar player going to do? Simple - take them moving through cover with Falcon/Serpent back-up on the table. Invulnerable save becomes Cover Save, probably 4+, and these guys ignore terrain so they are not slowed by it. That's the way I have always played my Harlequins (I have a 4k army of them with the Trial Codex rules) and it has been fairly successful.

E.

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Post#66 » Oct 22 2006 04:41

I think I'll just throw Vespid at those Drag 'Harlie' Queens... I'm sure the Vespid could keep up with them and if they get involved in a 'nasty' c/c all that expensive wargear would just be overkill. Mmmmmmm S5 AP3 in the face :crafty:

Anyway all this new Eldar stuff should provide a challenge I'm looking forward to seeing more of them. In fact I'm hoping to persuade my brother to collect them over Imps. I figure it will be more fun... for me. :-?
#43 formally known as El' & yes I still come here

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Post#67 » Oct 23 2006 06:06

Those 5 S5 hits aren't going to hurt them harlies one bit as 55% will be saved. You're more likely to have your Vespid used as a catapult to get the harlies even closer.
Imo FoF is the way to counter them.
Mephet'ran

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mont'ka
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Post#68 » Oct 23 2006 06:13

Mephet'ran wrote:Imo FoF is the way to counter them.


I'll back that up, and since they will be able to charge ,if some survive, anyway you can just park under their nose and unload.
A full squad with 2 gundrones and the 7 shots from the Fish won't leave much more than rainbow stains on the gras.
Cheers B.

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Tael
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Post#69 » Oct 23 2006 08:10

I actually can't help but think if a Eldar player tools up, there's less of them to a decent sized mechcadre's worth of SMS, Rail Missile Pods, Burst Cannon, Plasma and Pulse Rifle fire.

Considering any anti-infantry weapons are useless until our mech FWs disembark, and our whole force is each in their own tough nuts to crack and our suits can jump in and out of sight, I'm not overly concerned.

I will certainly respect the new Eldar ability to punish me for mistakes, but I do not see them doing well against a hail of Tau munitions.

The key thing to remember about Tau (I find) is we are the only army it seems that can bring everything to bear -effectively- on several key enemy units. The rest pay premiums for this ability. (heck our non-LOS weapons are lethal and plentiful)

I think as Mont'ka agrees, a good 'Fish Of Fury' caps any 'Harli MardiGras' parade.. (personally I'd back this up with some extra fire for psychological effect muhahaha)

~ Tael.

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Post#70 » Oct 23 2006 08:36

Mephet'ran wrote:Those 5 S5 hits aren't going to hurt them harlies one bit as 55% will be saved. You're more likely to have your Vespid used as a catapult to get the harlies even closer.
Imo FoF is the way to counter them.


Where are you getting 55% from? I haven't seen anything to indicate they have a low Sv in fact all I've seen is a (T3) 5+inv (Whoopidi-doo!) and that doesn't equate to 55% saves. The reason why I cite the Vespid as a possible counter is precisely because c/c against them would be pointless. Considering the basic Harlie Queen costs 2pts more (that's 20pts extra for ten) than a basic Vespid. On top of that I'm willing to bet all the upgrades we have been talking about won't be free. I'm sure a Harlie Queen unit with all the goodies will be significantly more expensive than a basic to 10 man Vespid unit. The Vespid will also be just as fast as any Eldar and (like the Harlies) ignore difficult terrain. In c/c the Strain leader's Ld will keep them in combat until you want them to die. By which point I would imagine you will have something lined up to shoot them with.

My arguments for Vespid against Harlies is based on speed, special rules and cost. A typical 215pt FoF is nearly 50pts more than Vespid and surely cannot keep the pace, but this is just my opinion based on what I've read here. I'm looking forward to getting the Eldar codex in my hands and giving it a good going over and then I'll decide which is best.

Till then...
#43 formally known as El' & yes I still come here

mont'ka
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Post#71 » Oct 23 2006 08:43

With Harli-kiss they cost 22pts, add a 30pts for upping one to Shadow seer and you can neatly cap the squad at 250pts.
Anything else you might want to add will only slow them down[to shoot] which you don't want!
Cheers B.
Last edited by mont'ka on Oct 23 2006 01:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Post#72 » Oct 23 2006 10:10

El'Flashman, you're correct, they do have a 5+ inv save. However, no Eldar player is stupid enough to run a unit of Harlies without a Fortune Farseer. And a 5++ is equal to about 55%. Which is why one needs lots of S5 and AP is unimportant. Also, harlies are one of the few who hit before Vespid, and with their number of attacks the Vespid will all be wiped out before they get to hit back.

As to speed, unless I'm very wrong, don't harlies move 6+d6 ? In which case our DF are faster. Besides, why are you running after them ? Let them come to you, position your twin DF, hail SMS down on them, and when they're within 24", Double FoF.
Mephet'ran

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